Today's AMA With Spez Did Nothing to Alleviate Concerns: An Open Response

As of this posting, here are the numbers:

Subs 4,039

Mods 18,305

Subscribers 1,666,413,302

Given that you can’t assume that every mod in every participating subreddit supports the blackout; that is still a staggering number.

We organized this protest/blackout as a way for Reddit to realize how important our concerns were and are. Earlier today, u/spez took to the platform for an, “Ask Me Anything” session regarding API changes that left many of us appalled. None of the answers given resolved concerns. It failed to instill trust in Reddit’s leadership and their decisions.

Things continue to reach a boiling point and we continue to stress a resolution that all sides can live with. Reddit deserves to make money and third-party apps deserve to continue to operate, charging a nominal fee that doesn’t cripple them. NSFW content deserves parity. The blind deserve accessibility and it shouldn’t have taken a blackout to highlight this lack of support from Reddit.

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Below are things that need to be addressed in order for this to conclude.

  1. API technical issues
  2. Accessibility for blind people
  3. Parity in access to NSFW content

API technical issues

  • Allowing third-party apps to run their own ads would be critical (given this is how most are funded vs subscriptions). Reddit could just make an ad SDK and do a rev split.
  • Bringing the API pricing down to the point ads/subscriptions could realistically cover the costs.
  • Reddit gives the apps time to make whatever adjustments are necessary
  • Rate limits would need to be per user+appkey, not just per key.
  • Commitment to adding features to the API; image uploads/chat/notifications.

Accessibility for blind people

  • Lack of communication. The official app is not accessible for blind people, these are not new issues and blind and visually impaired users have relied on third-party apps for years. Why were disabled communities not contacted to gauge the impact of these API changes?
  • You say you've offered exemptions for "non-commercial" and "accessibility apps." Despite r/blind's best efforts, you have not stated how they are selected. r/blind compiled a list of apps that meet users' access needs.
  • You ask for what you consider to be a fair price for access to your API, yet you expect developers to provide accessible alternatives to your apps for free. You seem to be putting people into a position of doing what you can't do while providing value to your company by keeping users on the platform and addressing a PR issue. Will you be paying the developers of third-party apps that serve as your stopgap?

Parity in access to NSFW content

  • There have been attempts by devs to talk about the NSFW removal and how third-party apps are willing to hook into whatever "guardrails" (Reddit's term) are needed to verify users' age/identity. Reddit is clearly not afraid of NSFW on their platform, since they just recently added NSFW upload support to their desktop site. Third-party apps want an opportunity to keep access to NSFW support (see https://redd.it/13evueo)

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Today's AMA fell far short of restoring the trust that Reddit desperately needs to regain. It is imperative that Reddit demonstrates a genuine understanding and willingness to listen to the concerns of its users, mods, and developers affected by these changes. As a result, a blackout is currently scheduled to take place in just three days.

Many of you have expressed the desire for an indefinite blackout, and we urge you to actively engage with your users and make decisions that prioritize the best interests of your community, whether that blackout lasts two days or extends even longer.

We firmly believe that there is still an opportunity for Reddit to rectify its course, but it requires a concerted effort to reevaluate and reverse these unacceptable decisions. Regrettably, thus far, we have yet to witness any tangible evidence of such an undertaking.

653 comments · 98% upvoted · other discussions

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britinsb

Well done-hard to argue with any of that.

Given the way spez has behaved, I don't see how anyone can trust a single thing Reddit has said they will do.

In the same way, every single mod that volunteers their time now knows Reddit's admin will not hesitate to fuck you, dump you and smear you if they think it's in their best interests. How that affects your willingness to keep working for free to generate value for Reddit is similarly up to you.

PepsiColaMirinda

In the same way, every single mod that volunteers their time now knows Reddit's admin will not hesitate to fuck you, dump you and smear you if they think it's in their best interests. How that affects your willingness to keep working for free to generate value for Reddit is similarly up to you.

I get this, 100%. But what makes it hard to abandon ship is that I'm doing this for the community or people who use my sub and not reddit. God bless the horny fucks, if you'd excuse my French, but I do this for them ultimately.

That said, we're also in discussions to take our 60k odd souls over to Discord if this keeps going this way.

britinsb

Lmao god bless indeed!

peddastle

Discord? That makes zero sense. That company is far more locked down than reddit. They go against everything the internet's openness stands for. Talk about a company that locks both you and your content in.

wyronnachtjager

R/formula1 is transferring to discord as well. Really sad, since reddit did feel like cohesive mindhive, where you could find everything, and where you could go to other communities pretty easy…

peddastle

I hate to say this, but if the admins see they're being threatened by a move to an even more locked down platform, they know they will win this battle.

repocin

The problem is that discord is an absolute garbage alternative to Reddit since there's no way to externally search for information and most chats zoom by faster than twitch chat so you'll have the same questions being asked a one hundred fifty three million times.

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Jesterfish

Be careful, Discord will ban without warning or explanation, and will not value your privacy.

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[deleted]

Most of us lost trust in Reddit when they deliberately hired someone with ties to child molestation and torture, and then refused to answer any questions about it from the community

britinsb

Well when you put it like that..:eek:

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ev1lch1nch1lla

Based on spez's responses and actions, the only way I feel good about coming back is if Spez steps down and leaves the company.

hovdeisfunny

Yeah, even if they end up walking back the API shit, this whole debacle has really put a sour taste in my mouth

anticommon

Nearly 12 years and 200k karma, I won't be adding anything of value after the 30th. If I'm confident in another platform I'll simply delete my account here. I still get comments sometimes on old posts months or years later, and all that engagement will end and be deleted if this dirtbag doesn't get removed.

It's not much and I don't really matter to anyone on here or in the executive office at reddit, but I'm also not alone. /b/itch is not qualified to run a lemonade stand let alone reddit.

I've been a marine engineer and I'm going for my PE in electrical engineering. I've managed teams and helped designed laboratories and hospitals. I'd be willing to consult for whoever takes the burning bag of shit spez is leaving them with (when he inevitably gets canned and reddit is convulsing) for free just to help them unfuck this situation. Sure they need changes, but fuck if this isn't an absolute cluster of absolute idiocy that needs to be resolved by professionals who can actually take some heat and make the right long term decisions for the platform (assuming they want it to, you know, actually become something great). This is not one of them.

I'm a wholehearted believer that it's companies responsibility to give back to those who help raise them up, and these moves are an unbelievable FUCK YOU to everyone who contributed over the last decade plus. Especially considering the relative costs when compared to the rest of the platform, and how much value third party apps and access to the API brings in. Reddit is going to end up capping at a billion dollar company when they could be the next Facebook or Microsoft (size wise) for social media aggregation and actually have an opportunity to leave a positive impact on the world rather than becoming something disgraced and run down.

But you do you spez, you greedy little pigboy you. You won't be missed.

Note: I reposted this because /b/itch has automod set to call any ping to his name harassment. What a little pigboy 😂

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andremeda

Spez is just the face of it, the real issue is would Reddit fix their shitty mobile app at all even if he did step down? Don’t lose sight of the real issue here

asstalos

What people are implicitly hoping is spez stepping down results in someone with more care and sincere stewardship of Reddit take his place.

The first party mobile app is simply uncompetitive against third party offerings in feature set / sheet offering, but nonetheless has a huge chunk of Reddit traffic just due to being a first party offering.

Leadership involves investing in existing tools so they are efficient and serve user needs, not spending disproportionate amount of money on features that are contributing to Reddit's lack of profit (or spending in ways that are disproportionately inefficient; death by committee and group process is very much a real thing in large orgs if not actively tackled).

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mizmoose

I think folks are missing an important point. It's not just about "Reddit making money off the API."

I'm fine with the general concept of sites charging money for API access. Many of them do. They're just not insanely greedy about it. But let's go further.

Spez made it very clear in his few replies that he's angry that 3rd party app developers made money from the apps. Whether they are donations or a subscription fee, I don't think any one of those 3rd party devs, after the costs of their time and any server/hardware/bandwith/etc. costs, are making enough from their apps to quit their day job.

Let that sit for a moment. A guy who is worth at least $10M (based on a Google search) is angry at people who might, if they're lucky, be making $20k/year on an app.

At one point, a month or two ago, Spez made a comment about (paraphrased) "People shouldn't be making money off of a website's work." This is hilarious for two reasons

  • The vast majority of people who "work" on improving Reddit overall are the moderators, the unpaid, oft abused, removed at a whim, long suffering moderators

  • At the last Mod Summit, Spez blathered on about finding ways to "let moderators make money from their subs", something that was generally greeted with eye rolls and disbelief that it would ever happen, as well as recognition at how easily that could be abused. Many people suggested it was just another way for Reddit to use moderators to make more money for Reddit and maybe get a pittance as a thank you for it.

This isn't just about Reddit making money. This is about greed and selfishness.

[deleted]

Apollo has been a full time job for the last 8 years, so that‘s certainly not true.

But it‘s okay to be making money on a third-party app, it should not be free labour.

mizmoose

You know, you're right. And even if it is a full time job, it's not like he's CEO of a big corporation.

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asstalos

I made a comment of similar lines elsewhere, in the sense that Reddit really believes it is entitled and deserves the revenue from the users who are using third party applications.

Spez sees third party applications as stealing Reddit revenue. The derision he voices towards them is definitely not in any belief that both Reddit and third-party applications can both be profitable, but rather Reddit isn't because third party applications are.

Hence why the API cost's majority is priced around the perceived opportunity cost of the user rather than in technical compute cost. It's all for Reddit to get what they think they are owed and rightfully deserve. So much of their rhetoric is around third party apps being bad internet stewards (because they are not profit sharing with Reddit), that they are "threatening" Reddit (because the revenue they are taking way becomes an existential threat to Spez's wallet), and so on comes not from any position of respecting what third party developers have done but out of spite.

Never mind the fact that users in third party applications are using them because they have no other good way to interact with Reddit (like people with disabilities), moderators who need the tools in these apps, and day to day users too.

mizmoose

Spez sees third party applications as stealing Reddit revenue.

Exactly! And it's disturbing that he doesn't understand why that's a giant load of bullshit.

Jinno

Especially when it was a big part of Reddit surviving the initial Mobile boom. They were exceedingly slow to build an app - and when they did they started from the base of the most popular third party app at the time that they shelled out to acquire.

This website would not have survived its highest period s of growth without third party API users creating the mod tools necessary to keep the largest subreddits remotely usable.

This website would not have been successful without third party developers using the API.

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Zavodskoy

14 comments he replied to, I've seen users of my sub reply to more comments than that on posts they've made

Zagorath

My sub has had better records from boomer local politicians invited who weren't otherwise on Reddit than that.

JuanFran21

I've definitely made posts where I replied to more than 14 questions in the comments. Maybe I should be CEO?

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_swnt_

Honestly, given the trend of Reddit in the past week I am sadly not surprised that this happened. It's hard to accept, but Reddit won't be listening to us.

We need to take our consequences seriously, and really try to move our communities into other community -owned and managed platforms such as Lemmy, kbin.social, etc.. See r/RedditAlternatives.

I really don't want to suggest this, but it's likely the most realistic option.

I don't expect any serious response to OPs letter to Reddit, as they've shown they don't have interest. Anything we'll get is just going to be corporate speak.

Finally, when many subs come online on the 14th, we should use the time to relax Moderation and just transition to other Reddit stuff.

What do you all think on this?

sirvalkyerie

I posted exactly this in this subreddit a little bit ago.

We need all participating blackout subs to create communities and instances on Kbin / Lemmy / PillowFort / Squabbles and put those links in their subreddits and on their protest messages. We need to give our communities somewhere to go off of Reddit instead of allowing for copycat subs to spring up. This means that we can actually threaten Reddit's traffic and we don't have to punish our userbases and communities.

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ZannityZan

Maybe I'm getting too old to understand newfangled apps, but I've truly never understood the Discord UI. Instead of nicely organised threads for each topic of discussion, there seem to be endless chats that just never stop. The rules are always ridiculously difficult to locate. And the last thing I want to do is voice chat - that's why I'm on bloody reddit!

I'm considering trying out Discord again as something to use on mobile rather than reddit, but I'm not convinced it will fill the niche.

BruhM0mentoMori

It really doesn't work as a "community" as much as reddit does. Plus, the conversation is split between channels which sucks

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DentateGyros

Yeah I think this is the end of the road. They’ll humor the 48h blackout and appoint new mods in whatever subs don’t come back online. They’re playing a game of chicken, betting that subs won’t stay dark, that people won’t leave, and that the new mods will be just as thanklessly dedicated as the current ones. And maybe they’re right, but the spiteful person in me is hoping they’ve made a grave miscalculation and that this site will turn into ash in their hands

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maniaxuk

That way no moderators will be replaced.

I wouldn't be so sure

BruhM0mentoMori

Yeah there's no way they're just gonna accept any more blackouts. Although its a dangerous game they're playing, if thousands of mods leave or are replaced, they have no backup. And its not like its a simple task either, its a pretty unique skill set people have built over years. It would take months/years to get new moderators and get them to a point the site is actually usable and safe.

Another possibility, i think remote at this point but possible if there's no other option (no mods left, all popular subreddits blacked out and abandoned) is the board getting rid of spez as a sacrificial lamb moment and giving back some crumbs (maybe an ad enabled api)

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brickfrog2

Finally, when many subs come online on the 14th, we should use the time to relax Moderation and just transition to other Reddit stuff.

Been thinking about that too. For the most part Reddit Inc seems to rely on volunteer moderators to deal with all the spam, copyright infringement, etc. Since they're insisting on collecting all that money for API access while diluting moderation tools then it makes sense that their own (paid) employees deal with all the trash that gets posted/commented regularly sitewide.

chopsuwe

Content removed in protest of Reddit treatment of users, moderators, the visually impaired community and 3rd party app developers.

If you've been living under a rock for the past few weeks: Reddit abruptly announced they would be charging astronomically overpriced API fees to 3rd party apps, cutting off mod tools. Worse, blind redditors & blind mods (including mods of r/Blind and similar communities) will no longer have access to resources that are desperately needed in the disabled community.

Removal of 3rd party apps

Moderators all across Reddit rely on third party apps to keep subreddit safe from spam, scammers and to keep the subs on topic. Despite Reddit’s very public claim that "moderation tools will not be impacted", this could not be further from the truth despite 5+ years of promises from Reddit. Toolbox in particular is a browser extension that adds a huge amount of moderation features that quite simply do not exist on any version of Reddit - mobile, desktop (new) or desktop (old). Without Toolbox, the ability to moderate efficiently is gone. Toolbox is effectively dead.

All of the current 3rd party apps are either closing or will not be updated. With less moderation you will see more spam (OnlyFans, crypto, etc.) and more low quality content. Your casual experience will be hindered.

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ysisverynice

Bkin.social

kbin.social

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StPauliBoi

Hey, let’s bring it back to Rampart.

ken27238

Let’s keep this about the movie.

hovdeisfunny

I'm pretty sure Woody answered more questions

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demosthenes131

I mean, the changes Reddit would have to make are so easy that it is just obvious they don't want to split the profits. They want it all.

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highlyregardedeth

I’m not a mod or anything, but what incentive is there to be a mod? If you aren’t getting paid, and the users don’t respect you, then what exactly are you getting for your time?

Like, if your work is essential to the day to day operations of Reddit shouldn’t you be entitled to minimum wage at the very least? Couldn’t you all class action Reddit for back pay as mods for years of service x minimum wage x hourly commitment every day?

Like, why don’t you all unionize and fight for the user like tron? A lot of people see you all as self serving, entitled, out of touch(their words not mine)…I think if you were paid to mod, the hate would be towards the man, not you all, you know?

Anyways, epic list of subs, I’m curious to see how it all plays out.

[deleted]

Some people are simply passionate for a certain community and feel that moderating offers them a methodology for giving back. Maybe someone who is a fan of a sports team, or a game, or an animal would like to help moderate a like-minded community to help spread their enthusiasm in a personally-meaningful way.

Can’t attest for the more abstract/generic subs, but I’d imagine this is also why more specific subreddits tend to have more down-to-earth, personal relationships with their users.

kentucky210

I've been a mod of the wrestling sub /r/squaredcircle for like 8 years at this point and this is pretty much it. I love wrestling and the community in general and modding it has been pretty rewarding. Hell I got the chance to talk to an Idol of mine in Dan Severn when we got him booked for an AMA which blew my mind at the time. I don't think a lot of the mods want payment, just want our lives as unpaid volunteers to not be more stressful.

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InfosecMod

What incentive is there to pick up trash that you find outside near your home?

Someone's got to do it. And if no one else is doing it, you should probably do it.

That's how most of us mods feel.

starkinmn

I'm a special case, I guess. Caribou Coffee is a chain that might be up next for unionization, and I don't want any company figurehead to control the subreddit.

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SexualMastadon

I doubt this will get seen by many, but Reddit C-Suite are missing an opportunity to slowly change into the kind of model that’s bound to replace them: one where the content aggregation and front-ends exist separately, like BlueSky or Lemmy.

If they were to follow the suggestions in this post, they could setup Reddit for the next decade or so by making Reddit the content platform and allowing anyone to design an app to work with it. Enforce ads, unless users pay a premium charge, and allow third-party developers to manage the front end. Instead, they’re making choices that will send this community the way of Digg, Twitter, Tumblr, and so many others.

It’s insane to me that it’s taken the community to offer up a solution that is a thoughtful negotiation between both sides. Less insane, and sadly all too predictable, is how these wet behind the ears, MBA, “if-it-ain’t-broken, break it” stooges are making these asinine decisions.

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PhillyAdjacentSubMod

I believe the admins will forcefully hand over dark subs to willing moderators. I think moderators should consider an alternative - come back online after the 2 day blackout, but "quiet quit". Don't moderate. Let the spam stay up. Let the scams stay up. Let users violate every rule. Don't report hate speech to admin, let it fester. Let it all turn into a cesspool. I don't think the admins could actually effectively address that.

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PhillyAdjacentSubMod

Yup I also think it's 100% what they meant by that. Any of these subs talking about doing an indefinite blackout – I get where they're coming from, I don't disagree. But I don't think it's going to go the way any of us want.

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PhillyAdjacentSubMod

Yeah I need to save my data then delete. Not too sure what life was like pre-reddit either but I just had a baby so I guess I'll pay even more attention to that now 🙃

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johnsadventure

I’m personally expecting Reddit to break/restrict/remove the option to make subs private before Monday. A code change regarding permissions or availability of the feature would be easier than trying to moderate large subs themselves.

Edit: inb4 “don’t give them ideas!” - I’m slow and dumb. If I thought of this I’m sure someone else already has.

sorashiro1

Wouldn't an alternative be to just make automod or something, auto delete any and all new posts?

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compounding

Also, can the Mods start culling the back-list of posts?

Admins want data for AI training and users brought in from search engines. If things get really contentious, mods can start hacking away at those just like users deleting their post histories.

Yes, Reddit probably has backups they can restore from, but it’s a pretty blatantly hostile step for them to come out and effectively say “you can’t delete your own stuff (from account or sub), we’re going to reverse your personal actions because it makes us more money”

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jaxinthebock

I think they could try mod replacement, but how long could it possibly last? The whole point is that moderating is to become impossible given the limitations of available tools. The current mods say they can't do it so there's no reason to believe new ones would be able to.

Moderation is such a hard problem, even if you try to be like facebook and pay people to do it. Reddit has been getting it for free all these years, they do not even understand what they have.

I posted the other day about an email I got from stackoverflow trying to recruit me to scab on their striking moderators. Even if I decided to have a go at it, what are the odds that I'd be any good? I do not know anything about how that site is run. I can only guess what a shit show must be going on if they are just letting any jackass off the street moderate. Who will guide and train the new mods, on SOF or reddit? And how will they handle the job when the useful tools are prohibited?

Reddit might try to recruit new mods. They might woo some existing mods back by making some concessions. They might even try paying people to do it. But it will not last very long because it seems like they have stumbled into a huge battle without having made any preparations.

Honestly from a strategic POV, they should have just bought Apollo for $10mil because then there would be a chance that they could clear house and get people who see things their (demented) way installed. But now they have destroyed that chance and are totally flat footed.

uberafc

It absolutely sounded like a threat

agent_flounder

I don't see how that can be taken any other way especially in light of all the other poor decisions they have made in the past.

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Meepster23

Why should we care? If they want to run the site into the ground, why would I want to mod for them?

PhillyAdjacentSubMod

That's kind of my point. Don't. Let's help them burn it down.

Meepster23

Forgive me, my eyes absolutely glazed over somehow and I either read another comment after your first line or something I don't even know.. I'm with ya know.

desdendelle

I don't know about you, but I don't want to expose my users to more bigoted filth than they are already exposed to.

PhillyAdjacentSubMod

I mean yeah, don't most mods feel that way? Isn't that why everyone is protesting in the first place? But if admin is going to make our jobs harder by removing the 3rd party apps that make modding easier, then maybe it's just hard enough that we can't do it. 🤷

desdendelle

If we can't do our jobs, the correct move is to shutter the subs entirely rather than leave them up: both because we should be at least somewhat accountable to our users, and because, again, our users don't deserve to be exposed to more bigotry than they're already exposed to.

PhillyAdjacentSubMod

That's fair. I just really do think they'll forcefully hand the sub over to someone else, if people do that. But I guess we'll find out.

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StPauliBoi

Why would they forcibly replace mods in the first scenario but not in the second?

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PhillyAdjacentSubMod

Yeah I'm constantly removing human trafficking posts from one of my subs so yeah, I get it.

I'll be honest - my protest IS quitting, but I'm leaving the subs in hands of other moderators who I know will carry the torch. But I think this approach I'm suggesting would be way more effective than a blackout, in that it would be WAY harder for admins to fix.

hychael2020

Yeah I'm constantly removing human trafficking posts from one of my subs so yeah, I get it

Wait wtf. You mean like people promoting human traffiking? That is messed up on so many levels

And yeah I really do agree. Should we try to make this the new goal?

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dkozinn

Perhaps I'm naïve, but I am hopeful that at some point this can be resolved amicably, and I don't want to wind up with a giant mess to clean up if and when that happens. I do like the general idea of letting Reddit understand the value that mods provide, but I don't want to make my own work that much harder.

My sub (r/nasa) will still blackout, and we are currently discussing how long to remain in read-only mode after that.

Zavodskoy

You could argue that you're keeping the sub private to maintain peace during the blackout / aftermath

Not moderating on the other hand will 100% get you removed at best, the entire sub banned at worst and you'd have no valid complaint about them removing you as a mod

There's nothing in the rules that says you can't take your sub private for a week, the rules do say you actually have to moderate

Don't give Reddit excuses

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uberafc

They probably do agree with reddit. I feel the same way about any of the subs not participating unless they are a support sub. Even than they can at least put up a pinned announcement on their sub.

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ElectronGuru

This is about the IPO and the perception that controlling eyeballs will yield a more successful IPO. Everything else is noise. The extent to which reddit will allow uncontrolled eyeballs is and will remain limited to obligations needed to legally conform with the disabilities act. A solution they are happy to ‘let’ others provide for free.

The only user or mod actions that will yield results are actions that can sustainably reduce eyeball control. That’s 2023 Reddit’s only pain point.

stagfury

You know what makes for a good IPO? A company with good PR and competent management

Can you imagine any listed company having some incompetent dipshit like spez as CEO?

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rchiwawa

3 hours of readingthe AMA and my plan remains to log-out forr the last time on all devices the night of June 30. still undecided on deleting all posts and comments

PhillyAdjacentSubMod

This is where I'm at. Losing 15 years of history is sad, but I think deleting is necessary too.

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Lilchubbyboy

I know I am not a mod, but can I say:

Come Commrades, you have nothing to lose but your digital chains

MrRenegado

This is deleted because I wanted to. Reddit is not a good place anymore.

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AmericanScream

Also there's a huge elephant in the room that we need to talk about: UNIONIZATION.

Reddit mods should form a union.

It's funny that they're monetizing everything but still not even contemplating paying the tens of thousands of UNPAID WORKERS who are primarily responsible for the content of their site.

DdvdD

Unionize and demand $20m/yr lmao

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Lilchubbyboy

I think subs should go dark regardless, you have to remember the optics of that maneuver. As many subs as possible should go dark, then if Admins decide to step up to the challenge and force them back open, you can generate a lot of protest positive reaction by spinning it in the right way to news sites/YouTube/whatever. You want to spread this story as far as possible so you also reach the people who don’t actively use Reddit, but still interact with it by way of googling/ YouTube.

These changes also affect those people and we want them on our side.

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