u/CascadeBoxer

I have a couple of upcoming projects with small pieces, and my (albeit modest) experience with CNC cutting has led me here: I separate the detail work and the small piece creation steps. I do my detail cutting when the work piece is thickest and most stable. Then, I make the cuts that create and separate the small pieces.

Steps that have also been helpful:

• Start with a large base to increase the hold-down power on the table. Make multiple small pieces out of the large original material.
• Increase the number of retention tabs, or just leave enough thickness to hold the large base together when it's cut into multiple small pieces. Separate the small pieces out with an Xacto knife, a small band saw, or an oscillating multi-tool. Clean up edges with a flush trim router bit.

If your dad would be interested in making a portable workbench that rolls along with the Packout tool stacks, we have instructional plans for making them: one version for a drawer stack, and another version for the Small/Medium/Large toolboxes. Yes, you are giving him a project. But the combination of Packout tool storage and a portable workbench is sometimes a handy thing. And we like designing stuff if there is a particular need or work scenario that can be built and looks cool.

I took a dovetail / box joint class at my local Woodcraft shop, and I can endorse all the comments about a sacrificial backing board. Some 1/4" or 1/2" MDF was perfect for stabilizing the back grain and preventing the router bit from pushing unsupported wood.

I got a used dovetail jig with the router bits and bushings, and made a couple of boxes to store chisels, etc. I was using plywood, but nice plywood with an attractive layer look. After one botched construction, I realized that cutting dovetails and finger joints with a router jig can sometimes be made better with two sacrificial layers. One 1/4" piece of MDF on the front, and another on the back of the piece being cut. It is definitely overkill, but plywood (and pine, and a lot of softwoods) is designed to de-laminate when a router bit is doing a cross-cut action. If you want to guarantee a tearout-free cut, in my experience you have to belt-and-suspenders that shizzy.

I'm glad that there was a quality resolution. The track is definitely the foundation of well-aligned projects.

If I understand your description, then the bar/spine that the track saw rides on is bowed on the left, but straight on the right. And ordinarily I would agree that the cam on the track saw should pull the saw in, and hold it to the right (straight) side of the bar. You would probably feel a change in tension as the cam squeezes a thicker bar and then moves through to a thinner bar. But I can also see how an imperfection at the bar would translate to an imperfection in the cutting line - those things are very much related. 

The only elimination test I can conceive is to completely loosen the retention cams and make a cut keeping sideways pressure on the right side of the sliding bar. If that ends up being straight, then you know that you have a straight line, but you can’t access it until you deviate from safety procedure (cams) and work around a factory imperfection (bowed sliding bar). The bar should be -straight-. That’s the whole point of the track saw. 

I started out using the long clamping saw guide before I got a real track saw. First, I noticed that the pressure of keeping the circular saw against the saw guide was causing it to bow inwards a little. I fixed that with a stopper piece that supported the middle of the guide. Second, I found that one side of the guide was straight, and one side of the guide had an inward bow to it. I used a piece of fishing line stretched straight to confirm the bow when the guide was not under pressure or tension.

With a track saw, if you are not giving the saw any lateral pressure, and if the saw is creating a bowed cut, then my first guess is that it's the sliding bar on the track. Test it with a straight piece of string or a good straight edge and see if it holds up. It's possible that one side is dead straight, and the other has the bow.

It could certainly be made out of wood, and 1/2" or 1/4" plywood would do the job. I also thought of foam insulation sheet. It's common to get a sheet for breaking down plywood, and you can cut the foam into sections and then join them in a folding, hinged fashion with a cut like this. Reinforce the folding section with duck tape, and the hinge will be pretty long lasting. Foam would definitely be lightweight. If you get the origami folding right, you could have it collapse pretty flat and then open into a box shape. Think about a standard cardboard shipping box, and mimic that.

If the interior of the box will be covered with the 'photo studio' material (something matte white-ish), then your box material could be plywood with hinges, thin plywood with an external frame of 1x2s, or foam board. The inside is simply covered with the photo background stuff.

Here are two interesting results from a google search.

1. Collapsible box

2. Portable studio

Will these be visible through-tenons, or simply a mortise and tenon that locks the legs into place?

The process of making this connection is tricky. Do you angle the tenon and cut a straight mortise? Or vice versa? Many say that an angled tenon on a chair/stool/table leg makes a weak spot as the grain is cut into, but the shoulder of the tenon usually has enough of a physical stopping connection to mitigate that.

I am working on the construction of footstools that copy the design of the bar stools that are already in place, which have through-tenons. (I actually think the thru-tenons are cosmetic, and the actual tenon is probably a dowel joint. But I make what the boss wants...)

For my footstool legs, I am making a compound angle jig that I can use with my Shaper Origin to make the tenons. Specific for me, and it took a fair amount of geometry and SketchUp modeling to get it dialed in.

https://preview.redd.it/k5hy4og795th1.png?width=963&format=png&auto=webp&s=996e36aeb9b32d10d49f806ce348b7d3f23b856a

If your tenons won't be visible, I might separate the tenon-making from the leg angles. Use a table saw and a taper jig to put the taper on the legs. Cut the top of the leg flat with the compound angle that will rest against the bottom of the table. Then make a loose-tenon connection with a pair of dominos or a large dowel. Use a forstner bit to drill straight down into the top of the leg, and straight up into the table bottom. Place your dowel, and look like a genius. You have made the connection, and bypassed the compound angle tenon nonsense by making a dowel tenon joint where two flat surfaces come together.

If your tenons have to be visible through the top of the table, then you can review your woodshop and your experience and decide: will it be easier to make a compound angle tenon? Or make a straight tenon on the table leg and cut a compound angle mortise on the table?

For version 1 of these footstools, I used a tenon jig that I had access to: https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-tenoning-jig/h7583. It was decent, but a little bit sloppy over the repetition of 4 legs.

Fine Woodworking has an article about compound angle joinery: https://www.finewoodworking.com/project-guides/joinery/compound-angle-joinery

As does Popular Woodworking: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/tag/june-2015/

And I haven't even touched the mortise in the table leg that will connect to the lateral braces. A standard mortiser should get that job done, or the classis forstner-bit-and-chisel strategy. Good luck!

u/CarlWeathersFeathers wrote in a comment and said the following:

What the other guy said, plus

You are going to need a serious DC setup to keep that size of a down draft table running.

Modular on in/outfeed is generally a bad idea. Floors aren’t perfectly flat, so to be at the right height/plane in one location typically will result in wobbly in another.

u/CueCueQQ wrote in a comment and said the following:

I looked at your 2024 Shop Tour pictures. Looks like the workbench wing has the microjig/dovetail slots for clamping stuff down? I see that the table saw base has rollers, but the workbench wing is connected to the fence rails and I can't see any rollers - this makes me think it doesn't need to move.

I don't move the tablesaw, no. When I bought it, I got the mobile base, since every youtube woodworker ever says how important it is to have wheels, but it never moves, so the advice is clearly not for me I guess.

I also see the picture of the paint storage on the side of the outfeed table. There is still some interior volume for the outfeed table. Do you have that put to use for storage, drawers, etc? It looks like it is less accessible because you have to go around to the garage door and the dust collector side. But there are some useful cubic inches under that outfeed surface.

The outfeed table is on a x-scissor lift so I can bring large work pieces up and down. It's less useful than it sounds, and a remake on the outfeed is due at some point, yes. I'll probably axe everything about this outfeed table TBH.

u/CascadeBoxer wrote in a comment and said the following:

RE: Communal usage. That is a very good point, and I'll have this discussion with the Director.

Mostly looking for Etsy plans and pictures of builds in other woodshops. We'll definitely build our own - both for cost and experience reasons.

Plans that have been reviewed so far:

• Etsy 1
• Etsy 2
• Etsy 3
• Ariba Box

I also work in a different, smaller neighborhood community woodshop. The shop only fits 2-4 people at a time, and they definitely have to be on separate tools. The communal consideration is "don't bump people with your boards while they are using the table saw".

This college makerspace is in a big building, and there are other rooms for the computer design lab, 3d printing and laser cutters, welding/metal shop, etc. Given that we are still building the woodshop into fresh functionality, I would be surprised if we started to have competing users for table saw and downdraft sanding at the same time. My thinking (and this will be my contribution to the director conversation) is that competing tool usage on a large shared workstation is indeed a concern, but that it's only an issue if the woodshop becomes as popular and well-used as the room with all the rapid prototyping stuff. As in - when it becomes a problem, then its a good problem to have.

I looked at your 2024 Shop Tour pictures. Looks like the workbench wing has the microjig/dovetail slots for clamping stuff down? I see that the table saw base has rollers, but the workbench wing is connected to the fence rails and I can't see any rollers - this makes me think it doesn't need to move.

I also see the picture of the paint storage on the side of the outfeed table. There is still some interior volume for the outfeed table. Do you have that put to use for storage, drawers, etc? It looks like it is less accessible because you have to go around to the garage door and the dust collector side. But there are some useful cubic inches under that outfeed surface.

The design from u/PracticableSolutions is also cool. It looks like they have a front vise on the end with the dowel handle. But - is that an End vise built into the big Face vise along the long back side - both with wheels? That's pretty slick.

u/CueCueQQ wrote in a comment and said the following:

what am I missing? Are there any glaring gotchas that I've totally breezed by?

Well building tools together like this is great for space, because overlapping infeed and outfeed means the space around each tool is being used multiple times. But it also means that you can only do one thing. In a one man shop like a home shop, that's not an issue. In this case, you're discussing it in a communal area, so it means that all of these tools can only have one user at a time. If your alpha design, I couldn't be ripping long stock down while someone else sands at the downdraft table. Or crosscut something that extends off the right side of the saw while someone else uses the router table on a long piece.

Additionally, maintenance for these tools becomes more problematic, because you have to disassemble the additions to get to some places. Again, for a one man shop, this is often an acceptable tradeoff, since the craftman either remembers how he built it, or is at least able to rebuild it. A communal space, maybe not so much.

Are there examples of already-built central workstations that hit the bullseye for table saw, router table, outfeed, useful storage and dust collection?

Do you mean a ready to buy example? None to my knowledge. If you're looking for DIY examples of people who've done something similar, I have my workbench built into my tablesaw wing as you can see here. Another user posted both here and on woodworking his take on the same idea. I have it saved still because I think he did it better than me, so whenever I get around to doing some bench work, I plan to copy some of the good ideas he has in his.

Is there a dust collector that excels at being placed under/inside of a table saw configuration? Compact and powerful?

Perhaps the Harvey GYRO AIR series might be of some interest to you. It's, unfortunately, expensive, but it's the only all in one unit that is horizontal rather than vertical. Otherwise, your options are mostly to either build your own, or accept that you'll have to do without a separator.

RE: Communal usage. That is a very good point, and I'll have this discussion with the Director.

Mostly looking for Etsy plans and pictures of builds in other woodshops. We'll definitely build our own - both for cost and experience reasons.

Plans that have been reviewed so far:

• Etsy 1
• Etsy 2
• Etsy 3
• Ariba Box

I also work in a different, smaller neighborhood community woodshop. The shop only fits 2-4 people at a time, and they definitely have to be on separate tools. The communal consideration is "don't bump people with your boards while they are using the table saw".

This college makerspace is in a big building, and there are other rooms for the computer design lab, 3d printing and laser cutters, welding/metal shop, etc. Given that we are still building the woodshop into fresh functionality, I would be surprised if we started to have competing users for table saw and downdraft sanding at the same time. My thinking (and this will be my contribution to the director conversation) is that competing tool usage on a large shared workstation is indeed a concern, but that it's only an issue if the woodshop becomes as popular and well-used as the room with all the rapid prototyping stuff. As in - when it becomes a problem, then its a good problem to have.

I looked at your 2024 Shop Tour pictures. Looks like the workbench wing has the microjig/dovetail slots for clamping stuff down? I see that the table saw base has rollers, but the workbench wing is connected to the fence rails and I can't see any rollers - this makes me think it doesn't need to move.

I also see the picture of the paint storage on the side of the outfeed table. There is still some interior volume for the outfeed table. Do you have that put to use for storage, drawers, etc? It looks like it is less accessible because you have to go around to the garage door and the dust collector side. But there are some useful cubic inches under that outfeed surface.

The design from u/PracticableSolutions is also cool. It looks like they have a front vise on the end with the dowel handle. But - is that an End vise built into the big Face vise along the long back side - both with wheels? That's pretty slick.

That's an excellent point. We might reduce the downdraft in size in order to keep it useful and still work with the size of dust collector that will fit into a table saw central station. The outfeed would have a little bit of downdraft area, and the rest would be something MFT-ish for utility.

Do you have a thought about how much downdraft could be supported by something small, like 500-700cfm - Dust Right 750, or CamVac 55l? Probably 30" x 20" of workbench space would be my initial target. We'd keep the compartment under the vent intake surface pretty small, so airflow would be concentrated through the downdraft holes and then into the dust collection hose pretty quickly. Maybe split the 4" hose into two so that the downdraft chamber has a wider scope of air movement.

From my initial time in the shop, the floor is pretty good. One of my design plans is that we make the components to the same dimensions. And where they connect / bolt to each other, add a dowel joint or loose tenon mortise. Not for gluing, but just for referencing and dimensional connection. The hope is that this would keep the cabinet under the table saw connected to the outfeed station, which should keep the outfeed at the right height. Woodshop legos.

We have the shop blog here, which talks about the various builds. The entry for the Rolling Drawer Workbench has a connection to the plans. 

https://dogislandoffcuts.blogspot.com/

Go right ahead!  I mean, I would prefer not to see a duplicate plan on Etsy. But I’ve made adaptations to existing designs to make my own project. One question: how much time would you spend in design mode? You can have my plan for $7, and it’s actually pretty detailed and accessible for all skill levels. If you put it in your Etsy cart and wait a day or so, the shop will send you a discount code, too. 

If you build your own, I’d love to see a pic on this thread. It’s always cool to see variations that I’ve missed. 

I removed some tree tire rings, and the sidewall I could cut free with a razor blade. The tire bead needed an angle grinder with some standard metal cutting blade. The steal belt took some doing - it's a combination of thick rubber and thin steel wires. The angle grinder got it done, but it took a while.

You have steps 1a thru 1c laid out correctly, and for the right reasons.

• You establish an initial flat surface with the jointer. Call it surface A.
• You perform an edge joint with surface A against the jointer fence. This produces a flat edge at a 90-degree angle to surface A. Call it surface B
• You run it through the thickness planer in order to get a third surface that is referenced flat and also parallel to surface A. Call it surface C.

The reason that the table saw is the best tool for making the final/fourth surface is the same reason that you switch from the jointer to the thickness planer. If you flipped your surface A material over and gave it another session on the jointer, to try to get surface C, then it would be flat and smooth - but it would likely be out of parallel to surface A. It might be difficult to see, but it usually looks a bit like a wedge.

Same thinking for trying to get surface D just with the jointer. When it's on the table saw, surface B is against the fence, and you will be producing a clean and flat surface D that is exactly parallel to surface B.

If you are making multiple boards, you can group them together and run them through the thickness planer to make surface D, keeping them as vertical as possible. But a table saw is the most commonly used tool for getting square lumber after the jointer and planer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMA_aG48OM0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8ey0z3bkUo

I work in two shops: the little garage setup and the big family summer cabin workshop. The home garage is all small and portable, so not worth mentioning in this thread. But, when the cabin workshop was built, dad had the builders put in a large workbench on the walls: maybe 24-26 inches deep and about 40-42 inches high. The wall above the workbench is something like OSB plywood, and we just put screws in the wall to hold tools, parts organizers, and caddies. So it's kind of like pegboard or a french cleat wall.

What I have noticed - with the height and depth of the workbench - is that everything on the wall other than the 16 inches above the workbench, is basically inaccessible. The reach across the bench and upwards is prohibitive, and I have pretty long arms for a 5' 10" Scott-ish lad. There is a lot of wall space, and we use it to store saws, levels, hammers, a big screwdriver/allen/torx rack, battery chargers, etc. But if it's up on the wall, I have to pull a shop stool over to get to it.

So I would advise on compromise WRT the depth of the workbench. When the workbench is free-standing in the center of the shop, bench width is good and versatile. But a wall bench needs to allow access to the wall - and not just the area 12 inches above the bench.

Check out these wall workstation plans:

• Woodsmith workstation
• Modular workstation

I don't think the workbenches have a lot of depth - 30-36 inches seems like overkill. You might give up some working space by staying in the 26-30 inch range, but your access to the wall will greatly increase.

This is a common enough situation that we have stickers. Packout to hold the stuff, FlexVolt to make the sawdust...