u/InTheMiddleGiroud

Yeah, I don't see how he reaches that conclusion at all. Like Palmer both travels to make the contact, and makes it quite forcefully.

I think if Palmer had been a red and Dowman a yellow, Gallagher would have been on the record agreeing with those decisions too. 

The most charitable reading I can give him, is that Palmer kind of just jumps into his opponent, while Dowman extends a limb. And while I agree that's one factor in favour of what Gallagher says, everything else - force, contact, premeditation - goes the other way.

I'm not even sure it's a red by the rules anymore. After the initial viewing I was like "yeah fair enough". The first angle does make it seem like he kind of moved his leg into Neal.

But the angle from behind the goal line shows he never really makes contact, except for on the part of the leg that was on top of his foot. 

Obviously not trying to say he couldn't avoid it. The reason he turned around and pushed  it off in the direction of Neal, was clearly because he was pissed about the tackle. But I don't think that's any more violent than the shuffles they normally give yellows for. 

He added: "I think it is [a red card]. People are comparing it to Cole Palmer on Saturday (with Mateus Fernandes), I think Dowman is a little bit more aggressive.

"He knows what he's doing. He almost brings his knee up in a kicking action."

There's something funny about the phrasing of why it's "a little bit more aggressive". After all, he almost brings his knee up.

Either way, we've seen reductions before. 

Like when Matic retaliated on Ashley Barnes, and had his ban reduced.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/31613184  

The tackle from Barnes was even worse. But as was the retaliation, and they still reduced his ban citing lack of force. And he sprinted full tilt at Barnes, who had his back turned. 

Shitty video

Just leaving this from when Matic retaliated on Ashley Barnes, and had his ban reduced.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/31613184  

Believe it or not, the tackle from Barnes was much worse. But as was the retaliation, and they still reduced his band citing lack of force. And he sprinted full tilt at Barnes, who had his back turned. 

Shitty video

I know I'm taking a crazy position here, but I think they'll either reduce the ban or reverse it entirely. 

It did for Chelsea when Matic retaliated on Ashley Barnes

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/31613184

Believe it or not, the tackle from Barnes was much worse. But as was the retaliation, and they still reduced his band citing lack of force. And he sprinted full tilt at Barnes, who had his back turned. 

Shitty video

He definitely reacted to it, which gives the referee the opportunity to over react.

But I couldn't help but think of Dan Smith, who in his 3 games for Sunderland managed to ruin Abou Diaby's career. Smith played an additional 17 games in lower league and the rest of his career in non-league. 

"Remember that Winter were all games were interrupted by drones" us in 5 years. 

"Remember that Winter were all games were interrupted by drones" us in 5 years. 

This is absolute nonsense though. Incredibly shallow. 

Didn't see it as a topic when van Persie or Mourinho were doing well. 

It's totally possible that Wilcox isn't cut for the job, but not because he played for Leeds 20 years ago. He's got an incredible career opportunity, and is presumably spending every waking hour to succeed.

The guy got the job as Director of Football just after they'd finished 15th. People are speaking about him like he's the mastermind behind the downfall, when he's just a shitty cog in a rotten machine. Wilcox might need to go, but it's not conclusive if he's more or less to blame than the owners, coaches, players or even the people who built the squad he inherited.

You know these guys also play football during the non-televised part of the week right? 

There's an injury risk to everything. But playing one starter has us mitigating that risk incredibly well. 

I agree the league is stronger, but I don't think United's current failings are really all that  comparable to the snark about Arsenal under Wenger. 

Arsenal got ridiculed for finished 4th behind Ferguson's Man United and the unchecked spenditure of Abramovich and UAE, while we had a decade post the Invincibles spending £9m net. And had to contend with top players leaving for triple wages to our competitors.

United spend about the same as the other top clubs, and haven't had a proper title challenge since Ferguson left. 

Look at Gabriel and Ben White, they had their struggles at Arsenal but were given time to settle and improve without every bad performance becoming a national story.

This is nonsense. People went fucking ballistic about Arsenal when we were struggling too. People were so busy memeing about Arteta, that some missed the turnaround by like 18 months. Example. 

Ben White and Gabriel weren't given grace so they could improve. They were just good at football pretty quickly. Gabriel is potentially the best center back in the world at the moment. I think it's possible that even if he wasn't at that level when he joined, it was still visibly less of a shambles than at Man United.  Perhaps you'd also focus on Mari, Holding, Chambers, Cedric, Tavares etc. before you got around to hammering Gabriel. 

Gabriel joined into the stinky opener of 2020/21 and was awarded Arsenal player of the month three months in a row. You just don't really have a go at your best defender, when your team scores twice in 8 games - and he scored one of the goals. 

White joined when we were already on the up, though there was quite the stumble in the first three games. Neville and Carragher was dancing with the Brentford-fans about how soft he was. White in particular was getting hammered by the £50m price tag. 

Then we started performing and that was about it. 

I agree that the failings of the United players are amplified compared to in many other clubs. But Arsenal is a horrendous example. 

This seems like an incredibly shallow analysis.  

They can bin him anytime they want. Like, is he afraid Ratcliffe is going to notice his incompetence, but haven't yet?

It's not a 1970s TV show. These are not cartoon villains with shallow, predictable motivations. In what logical way would the Director of Football be more secure in his position, by advising the club to keep a manager who's clearly done?

I think it's much more likely they've just agreed to let him hang around for a bit, until they find a replacement.

He basically seems like his own interim at this point. Just sticking around until they find a replacement. 

At least he saw 2022/23, which presumably made the decision easier. 

His pal Lisandro Martinez must be kicking himself for making the opposite choice a year earlier. 

He insisted on giving Kane a chance to much ridicule

Was there any ridicule? Kane scored in his first three league starts. Then another three games passed and Sherwood was sacked.

I'm finding it hard to believe people even had the time to have a go at it.

With most of the other United coaches, at least there's been a debate whether or not they have the coaching abilities to turn it around if given enough time. Except for Ole, they've all showed it at top level elsewhere.

Carrick got hired on results. But he's never really been heralded as a footballing mastermind, so once the results ran out, there was not much left.

I really commend the support he got by the home fans at Old Trafford though. Top class.

Yeah, especially when there's little to no XP and not really any of these little packs to go along with it 

Like, I don't need 85x10s, I just like the incremental improvements to my gallery.

You're delusional.

I think a combined 11 everyone fit its 6 to 5 in favour of Liverpool.

Let's have it then

You mention rival fan thread and self awareness but then say cant be a serious person when saying Wirtz is on par if not better than Odegaard. It shows you haven't watched us recently and you are basing a lot of this off twitter and your echo chamber.

Okay, I've regretted. Let's not have it.

I've said nothing disparaging of Wirtz. But I think you're sleeping on Ødegaard. Incredible player this season. Probably our best alongside Rice. 

I also don't really understand all the dick measuring over end product for a player with 0G 2A in the league. 

Arsenal fans seem to make out youd think they been putting up 90 point seasons and scoring for fun

Can we stop this nonsense. We won the league, reached the CL-final, have finished top 2 four seasons in a row. We're allowed to not predict the team faltering out of nowhere.

I've not said anything outrageous about neither Arsenal nor Liverpool. You have. 

I've been completely open to you having your own fantastical thinking. You've been dismissive and rude to people who don't share them. 

you mentioned Zubimendi but back end of last season he was terrible for you lot theres a reason you went for Bruno and he looked lost against Brighton

Have a look at the grace you give your team for stinking it up the whole year, versus Zubimendi for dropping off at the end of a season where he almost played 70 games for club and country. And played a massive role in a title win and CL final run.

Have a look at the grace you give Wirtz versus the way you judge Bruno for one performance. 

You've done it 10 different ways in this conversation. "<Some minor intangible> must mean <best possible outcome> for Liverpool", 

"<Some minor intangible> must mean <worst possible outcome> for Arsenal". 

You are why people dislike Arsenal fans by the way, you treat your own team completely differently to everyone else's. 

The lack of self-awareness here is crazy.

The only thing I've said is to judge teams by what happens on the pitch. You've continuously given Liverpool the most charitable assumptions possible. And everyone else the complete opposite.

And as I've continued to say, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't understand why it's so hard to comprehend why others might not share it. 

You are mentioning our attack saying "all pretty good" when man for man they are better than Arsenals? Isak better than Havertz and Gyokeres, Barcola better than Saka and Gakpo better than Tzolis/Eze/Madueke.

I don't agree with all of these, but it's true that Liverpool have overall have a higher quality front trio. But a combined XI would then have 7-8 Arsenal players in the remaining 8 spots. Not to mention the much superior bench.

You mention bringing on Zubi and Bruno, but thats because you started with Merino and Odegaard (yes he been ok this season but still has less goal contributions than Wirtz who is apparently in bad form).

I can't. You're not a serious person.

Arsenals crown jewel is your defence and yes that is better than ours hands down but as starting XIs go you are not that far ahead and we have better depth up front and midfields there isn't much there.

I continue to be unable to can.

Play us down all you like it might not be this season but I back us to take over Arsenal again in the next 2 or 3 years as we are getting better and Arsenal have regressed constantly over the past few years the only reason they managed the title was because City were not very ruthless and Liverpool dropped off a cliff due to weird circumstances.

Still not canning. You should really get out of the rivals watch thread some more, buddy. I think the echo chamber has fried your brain a bit. 

I started to write a long reply to each section of your comment, but you're basically doing the same thing in each of them.

You presume everything will come good. All the midfielders will return to their best. The guy with 150 senior minutes in the league will be sufficient depth (in the title fight against a team subbing Bruno and Zubimendi into midfield this week) 

The defence will be much stronger once players return. The new will all perform. The oldies won't regress.

The so much more balanced attack that hardly score goals, is so much more balanced than the one with the 47 G/A player, Luis Diaz, Gakpo, Jota and Nunez. 

I guess it's more balanced in the sense that they're all pretty good, rather than an all timer, a fantastic player and some decent ones.

You seemed like a very optimistic guy. All the best outcomes for Liverpool. But boy did that optimism reach it's limit, once you had to describe the defending champions and CL finalists. Because of our "tough December" where we play one team in the top 10 and never leave London. 

And you know. It's one thing for you to believe all this. I don't, but that's football. But you're the one going into the Monday Moan thread, to talk about how crazy it is other people are not sharing all your fantastical assumptions. 

Surely you can understand why people want to see it on the pitch first?

I think the double standard is particularly grim for you, because the credit you want from others for Liverpool's hypothetical performances, is one you're not willing to give to other clubs for their actual performances.

You say you don't see us mounting a challenge but then also said before you expect to lose at Anfield?

It was more a cheerful reference to the fact that I'm talking down the chances of a team we're playing away this weekend. 

I think the bookies have a pretty precise assessment of the probability of the outcomes in this instance. A Liverpool win this weekend - 1 in 3 doesn't seem that crazy to me. 

Neither does 1 in 14 for Liverpool winning the title.    Based on your comment, I'd probably sprint to the bookie for the latter if I were you. 

There are still lots of title winning players in the team and you can argue in the positions that there aren't we have upgraded in

I disagree.

When Liverpool won the title in 2024/25 10 players started 28+ league games. What's left from those is Van Dijk and Alisson in their mid-30s and MacAllister, Gravenberch and Szoboszlai.

Salah, Diaz, Robertson, Trent and Konate are gone. 

So I'd say 4 out of 5 who stayed a worse now than in 2024/25 (to varying degrees) and 4/5 replacements are worse than the predecessor. (I count Barcola and Jacquet as half a point each) 

Then the 11th spot (upfront) is improved when Isak is fit.

And even if we start splitting hairs whether or not you've regressed in certain positions or just stayed about the same, one thing is definitely different.

You had a player get 47 G/A in the league that season. 1.24 G/A per game. This season the entire team scores 1.38 per game.

The statistics of our games in 2026 is very misleading though because last season was an actual anomaly because even the players have admitted the Jota situation fucked them was a spiral season and this season has been a reset which we have done the opposite of last year and grown into the season.

You can't blame people for waiting to see if different players perform different. There's not an inherent Liverpoolness that will just get you points. 

United discovered the same post-Fergie, Tottenham's Big Six sheen disappeared with Kane and Son. In my opinion that's what's you're learning at Liverpool right now, and in a few years it'll be Arsenal's turn. 

I think low 80s is enough to win the title this year which I dont think is out the question for this Liverpool team as it is better than the one that won the league with Slot. I think next weekend will tell us where we are, a result against Arsenal and we could sneak into the title race and you lot have a tough December so if we can get to January still in it with Ekitike/Leoni/Sboz/Bradley all back we could really push.

I guess we'll see. We've won 12 of the last 13 league games you've won 11/28

For your prediction to come true, we'll have to go 18-6-6 (2ppg, 81 point finish) and 21-5-4 (2.27ppg, 83 points).

You never know in football. The ball is round. But I'd be very surprised if Liverpool had a drastic upturn and Arsenal had a drastic downturn.

I think low 80s will be enough for us to win the league this year. But not for anyone wanting to beat us. 

I've not seen anything from this Liverpool-side suggesting they'll be more than a conventional Big Six team who'll have enough firepower to go decently ahead of the pack, but not enough to truly challenge. 

Time will tell, but I'd say the "put some respect on our name" for when you've seen these current players actually consistently demand such respect

Thanks for the reply - always nice to go a step deeper than the surface level stuff you pick-up from paying half attention to a team

I think it's fair to say the jury is still out on whatever this Liverpool-side is. It's not the same team - (largely) not the same players or coach - that set Liverpool apart from Chelsea and United over the last decade. 

Obviously with the big money attacking signings, there's a chance you might still be a level above those teams (if they lived up to ordinary big six standard), but you've  won 11 out of 28 league games in 2026 so it's hardly outrageous for people to not just assume Liverpool are walking into a title challenge. 

My prediction has been that Liverpool will finish somewhere in the 70s on points. And based on what I've seen so far this season, that's not unlikely. But I'd be more surprised with 80-something then 60-something come May.

Also, I know writing this comment that we'll definitely lose at Anfield.