u/Jongtr

"Whiter Shade of Pale", has a diatonic descent (through the whole scale).

"Can't Take My Eyes Off You" - Frankie Valli (Bob Crewe, Bob Gaudio) - has a chromatic one, much like yours.

Bob Dylan used the first part of it "Simple Twist of Fate", but basically stole the whole thing later for "Make You Feel My Love".

The Beatles used partial descending lines (major key, chromatic) in a few tunes: the intros for "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", the verse sequence of "Something".

Pretty sure he has a capo on 3.

The Cm7 is then a simple Am7 shape - x-0-2-0-1-0, -and the "F9" seems to be 5-5-4-0-3-0. (It sounds at first like x-0-4-0-3-0 - just moving the Am7 shape up - but I think the low F is in there between the C and A, with the Bb right above the A.)

It's not really F9, btw, although it is performing the V function in the sequence. F9 needs F A C Eb G. This chord (bottom to top) is C (F) A Bb F G, so to have F as root, it would be "Fadd9add11" strictly speaking! Unless you want to make C the root, in which case it's the slightly simpler C13sus4.

The Bbmaj7 then seems to be 3-5-4-0-0-x. Again, it could be 3-x-4-0-0-3, but I think the F is there between Bb and A. (I don't hear the 1st string.)

I'm ignoring the possibility of an alternative tuning, of course, but those shapes will get you close enough in EADGBE.

Apart from listening to different styles of music (I've already been doing this for a long time)

OK, but how much have you been playing that music? In this case, seeking out different rhythms and copying them? I.e., you have to get them into your hands (and body), not just your ears.

I guess you know all this, but for more interesting rhythms and grooves in popular metres - syncopations and cross-rhythms in 4/4 and 12/8 - it's African music and music of the "African diaspora" (Cuban, Brazilian, Jamaican, etc etc).

For more unusual time signatures - irregular metres - it's Eastern European folk music and prog rock (and maybe jazz, post-Brubeck).

Again, it's learning to play them which is what counts. That means they enter your inner vocabulary, along with all the rest.

I guess it depends on how critical tolerances are. 😄

True. But some people have time to waste, just to entertain themselves. Like us posting pointless reponses to this foolishness! 😄

Spoilsport. 😂

What's wrong with "rambling"? The first part consists of functionally weak movements, but so what? "Rambling" can be a positive attribute. Not all chord sequences need to be directional, to have forward motion.

There are two questions that we can't answer, but you can:

1. Were you tasked with creating a progression with functionally strong changes? (I.e., the clue here is you are writing a "nocturne". I don't know what rules that requires, so maybe you are not following those? At least, not the rules your teacher - or your critic(s)! - believes are required!)
2. If this is purely your own creation, for your own pleasure, do you like how it sounds? Did you try plenty of other options for your first 3 or 4 chords, and arrive at that sequence because you liked it more than the other sequences you tried?

IOW, if (1) does not apply, then it's totally down to how you feel about it. I.e., if - regardless of anyone else's opinion - you yourself want it to be less rambling, plenty here could help. But your own ears are the final judge.

I'd definitely be thinking Fmaj7 for the first chord, because of the chromatic mediant relationship with Dmaj9: shared tones and half-step moves. The E6/9 is also potentially Emaj9 (i.e. it could have a maj7, although a b7 is possible).

The answer begins from chord tones / arpeggios, and then deciding how to choose passing notes between chord tones. There is no shared scale chord to chord, so do you treat each chord as a modal entity in its own right? Or try to find links between the chords - how many scale notes could each mode/scale share, to make the changes sound more connected?

1. Keeping it as simple as possible: C major scale on the C/F chords, and A major scale on the D and E chords.
2. Using the same mode on each chord (lydian) means the same thing, except switching to B major scale on the E chord. (F lydian - D lydian - F lydian - E lydian, if you find mode names help, I don't personally, 😄 )

IOW, it's about how much affinity - and what kind - you want to create between the chords as they change. Flipping from C major to A major and back over the C/F - E - C/F chords contains two more notes in common between the scales than flipping from C major to B major does; while the latter echoes the bass movement, and keeps the same modal sound on each chord.

Not at all. (And it's nothing to do with whether we like a particular song or not!)

On an F major chord, the A minor pentatonic scale gives you all the "sweet" notes. The 3rd and 5th, of course, adding the 6, maj7, and 9. Classic jazz choice. (Wouldn't work in key of Bb, but fine in C or F major.)

Naturally this is assuming the accompanying musician(s) are playing the chord - as is the case here.

But I do disagree (half!) with u/65TwinReverbRI that this progression is key of A minor. IMO it's not really in a key at all, u/MusicOfTheApes is more on the money: A major scale on the D and E chords, with A minor (C major) only on the C/F chords,

I guess you can say it flips back and forth from A minor to A major in scale terms, but seeing as there is no A-root chord, the "key" is (deliberately) ambiguous. (And I think it's significant the C has an F bass, so there is a "chromatic mediant" effect of Fmaj7-Dmaj7 and back.)

Yes, but that's separate from the major chord itself. If we're speaking about triads - the foundation of western (European) harmony, rather than the world-wide popularity of pentatonics - then the minor 3rd has a more complex relationship with the root than the major 3rd does.

The minor 3rd is not even an overtone of the root, in the way the perfect 5th and major 3rd are.

Of course, if we wanted to explain chords purely on the basis of the harmonic series, then the minor triad would not "work" at all! It would sound incomprehensible as a potential "tonic" chord! It's "root" is not the acoustic root of the chord!

So there's obviously a lot more going on. But the greater complexity of the chord, in terms of frequency relationships - 10:12:15 against the major's 4:5:6 - can explain why it easily became associated to more complex "moods" than the major triad. Acoustically, it's a little more "mysterious", "unsettled" than the major triad.

(The other thing that renders the harmonic series less crucial is the fact we can accept equal temperament as sounding "in tune": the 14 and 16 cent discrepancies of the 3rds. Close enough is good enough, which is not really acceptable in math!)

i learnt music theory ... whilst learning how to play piano

That's the secret.

Firstly, you were connecting the concepts to the sounds, and vice versa. That's how it all makes sense, because that's the whole point of theory. Not to"explain why music works", but just to help us talk about it, to discuss the various "common practices".

That's how it should work for anyone learning any instrument ("this piece of jargon = this sound"), but - secondly - the piano is the best instrument to do it with, because (a) it's intimately related to notation (white notes = lines and spaces. black notes = sharps and flats), and (b) you can easily play chords on piano (to understand harmony).

Misirlou scale! In E in this case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIU0RMV_II8

E F G# A B C D# E

Original in G: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW6qGy3RtwY

Aside from the obvious enough first question ...

is there something similar for minor 7th chords (i.e any scales that sound good over an E Minor 7 chord that arent the E Minor scale)

In theory yes (in theory alone). But - as with the Fmaj7 / A minor pent question - it's all a no-brainer if you know your scales and the notes in each chord. (And if you don't, time to start learning them! And that means the notes on the fretboard too, of course!)

Notes in Em7 = E G B D. So you need 3 more for a complete scale.

• Just adding A gives you E minor pentatonic. (You knew that, right?)
• Adding C and F gives you the F major scale, which you can all "E phrygian mode", if you want a meaningless fancy name.
• Adding C and F# gives you the G major (E minor) scale, which you can all "E aeilian mode", if you want a meaningless fancy name.
• Adding C# and F# gives you the D major scale, which you can all "E dorian mode", if you want a meaningless fancy name.
  

In theory - again - there are other permutations of those three non-chord tones, which will give you more weird and exotic scales. (A# C# D#? A# C# D? A C# F?)

But this is all theory not practice. IOW, it's things you can play around at home with while jamming over a single Em7 chord. Listen to it all and make choices that way. You can trust your ear!

But in practice - in actual music, actual songs (which is what you want to know about, I hope), you are given the scale. It's there in the melody and the chord tones. You don't need to "apply" anything, ever. Just learn the song.

And you don't even need (much) theory to do that. Some musicians, especially in folk, rock and blues, pick everything up by ear, just copying what they hear and making stuff up to fit. Those of us with ears not quite good enough to do that (at least not without spending a lot of time) can learn songs from notation (melody and chords). As a guitarist who - I guess! - can't read, tab and chord shapes will do.

Just remember that the notes that sound good on one chord will be the notes in that chord plus the notes in the other chords. It really is that simple. (It can be more complicated but doesn't have to be.)

Eg, if your Em7 chord is in the key of C major, then the A C and F notes will be in the other chords. So, even knowing the notes on the fretboard is not necessary if you can find your way around by chord shapes and ear. Can you do that? And remember it's chords that guide you - the shapes and arpeggios - not scale patterns. Knowing scale patterns is no good if you don't know the chord shapes within them. Learning the melody, if you can plck that up somehow, helps in giving you tips on phrasing, but you can do without it. (Can you think melodically?)

I don't mean to sound sarcastic! It's no sin to be ignorant of theory. We all start knowing nothing! It's good that you come here with curiosity, but the point here is not to look for answers in theory, not without listening and copying as much as you can first,

The answers are all in the music, You just have to learn the music (that particular song, and lots more like it) any way you can. Tab, chord charts, notation, youtube demos, watching videos of the actual artists playing, listening to recordings and playing along ... all that and more.

Theory does nothing but name it all - which is of course handy when asking questions and understanding answers! (If a youtube lesson starts talking about "the altered scale" and doesn't explain it, you obviously need to know what that is, But my tip there would be: stop watching that video! You don't need it!)

This is like those fragments of a broken pot found in an archaeological dig, where it only makes sense when you put them all back together in the right order. Oh yes, there you go, the circle of 5ths. Someone obviously broke it when they threw it away...

Yes, they're all there, but only F-G-C are actually being played at 0:09 (the point the OP asked about). The rest are sustaining from the earlier chord. That's why it all adds up.

It sounds a bit like an Fsus2, but it lacks fullness

It is Fsus2, which is why it lacks fullness! 😄 It's just 3 notes. The rest is what is hanging over from before - which you can't hear clearly at that point. It's fact you were guessing the complex Bb9sus chord that made me check back and realise the Fsus2 is like the cherry on the top of the Bb9 from a few seconds back. (The "sus4" is really just a brief Eb on the way.)

The chord at exactly 0:09 is Fsus2 - just the notes F-G-C - but it is a continuation of the Bb9 chord played at 0:04 and sustained. An Eb follows the D note, and the descending lines end on that F-G-C, so I guess it all adds up to Bb13sus4 (ignoring the D in the beginning).

New Frontier - Donald Fagen

Maxine - Donald Fagen

- or pretty much anything else on Night Fly. (Or is it too far away from "popular", too close to "jazz"?)

The problem is that chord names derive from tertial stacking: 1-3-5-7-9-11-13.

We have "sus" names, of course, for when 3rds are missing (replaced by 2 or 4), but the 5th is necessary for establishing an acoustic root.., i.e., which note sounds like the root, regardless of where it is in the chord.

E.g., the root of E-A is A, because E is 5th of A, even though it's below. The root quality of A is a little weaker when E is below, and that weakness is amplified when either a B or a D is added. B is then 5th of E, which supports E as root if it's lower than A. IOW, once a chord contains two 5ths (or 4ths which are inverted 5ths), then the one whose root is lowest tends to rule. This is because acoustic root quality derives from the harmonic series, where the root is the lowest frequency of all.

So:

A D E = Asus4. The chord has two potential roots, A or D (D is root of A-D), but A is lower.

A E D = Asus4, for the same reason, and more clearly - because the higher the alternative root is, the weaker its root quality is, because roots on top of a chord are counter-intuitive (turning the harmonic series upside down).

D A E = Dsus2, because D-A is a lower 5th than A-E

D E A = also Dsus2, and for the same reason. ("2" and "9" do not specify where in the chord the note goes.)

E A D = Asus4/E, or arguably E7sus4. But the latter would be clearer if B was added, to give E its 5th.

B E A D = a quartal stack, even harder to name, but E7sus4 is probably best, because E is the lowest of the three potential acoustic roots.

Then again, it's common in jazz to omit 5ths - simply becayse all they do is strengthen the acoustic root! They add no interesting character or quality to a chord! So you might well see B E A D named as "Bm11", even though B is the only chord tone without its 5th being present. But because it does have its 3rd, D present (and jazz loves 3rds and 7ths), it kind of takes over the root role, because the three 5th intervals are all inverted, and therefore weaker - as well as fighting it out among themselves! 😂

Even so, being a stack of 4ths weakens any functional identity the chord could have. (B minor tonic? A major ii chord? D major vi? G major iii? F# minor iv? Context might persuade you it's any of those, but without context it's none of them.)

In fact, that's the appeal of quartal stacks in modal jazz, which needs harmonies to be non-functional. A chord with no clear identity has no clear function - it's just a nice sound in its own right. Quartal chord have a kind of "perfect suspended" sound, which is their big attraction. They can go anywhere, do anything, or just sit there and do nothing!

Rock is also not much interested in functional harmony, which is why 7th chords are not common (7ths have strong functional identities), but sus4s, sus2s and add9s are all quite common. Power chords have very strong root qualities of course - nothing but 5ths! - but lacking 3rds means they also have ambiguous functions.

Do they really need to start with V or VII? That's quite unusual for jazz intros (other than holding a V pedal with descending voicings on top).

And why not just descend the scale from V? V7 - IVmaj7 - iii7 - ii7 (add V bass to the last one if necessary).

Common jazz intros, though, tend to start with I, or sometimes ii, vi or iii. The cheesiest one is probably I-vi-ii-V, all diatonic with 7ths.

They can be made jazzier using secondary dominants: I - V/ii - V/V - V. (E.g. in C major, Cmaj7 - A7 - D7 - G7) That gives you the chromatic descending 3rds and 7ths, a very common vintage jazz sound.

Even jazzier, tritone subs: any of the following:

Cmaj7 - Eb7 - D7 - G7
Cmaj7 - A7 - Ab7 - G7
Cmaj7 - A7 - D7 - Db7
Cmaj7-Eb7-Abm7-Db7
Or any permutation (all lead back to C, of course.)

Other options:

Em7-A7-Dm7-G7
Em7-Eb7-Dm7-Db7
Em7-Ebdim7-Dm7-G7

(all can be repeated before resolving to C)

Those are all for introducing songs in major keys, so for songs in minor keys (not sure about Polish, but a lot of English carols are minor key), try some of the following, again with Cm as key:

Cm-Cm7-Fm7-G7

Cm-Eb-Dm7b5-G7

Cm-Bb-Ab7-G7 (or just hold a Cm chord with the C-Bb-Ab-G bass line)

 I realise that some minor melodies are so beautiful that they make us happy just to hear them [e.g. a slow Chopin nocturne, or whatever] but I'm not counting them either

Oh, right. Even though they are perfect examples of what you're asking? IOW, I guess you're asking for other examples, because you already know those?

Or do you want examples of slow minor key music which have miserable or boring melodies but still somehow sound "happy"?? Hmmm, let me think about that one ....

Would you also exclude songs which are slow, minor, and with "dark" lyrics, but which can make audiences happy because they are so familiar we can sing along? Like Hotel California? I.e., if you imagine that as instrumental, without the lyrics, then - despite its very simple and repetitive melody - maybe the rhythm, with its reggae-ish lilt, counts as "happy"?

I suppose my answer might be the same, though - go look at lead sheets for songs in genres I like.

Yes.

1-4-5 may be a bad example.

It's extremely common. You should certainly know those 3 chords in every key, and in all different orders. But (when typing!) call them "I IV V". "1 4 5" are used for scale degrees or chord tones. Obviously they are still pronounced "one four five". 😄

 say it's a chord progression of 4 or 5 chords - there's gotta be a lot of ways those do and do not get ordered.

Absolutely. In fact, few ways they won't get ordered, but obviously some are more common than others.

But again, look at a few lead sheets or chord charts. Google a favourite or well known song, adding "chords" to the title. And listen for the chord changes whie listening to the track - and of course play along if you can. (You can google bass tabs too, if you want a specific line.)

is this a me problem

Essentially, yes. I mean, it's probably quite common - minor keys are popular (especially in certain genres), so I suspect a lot of players are drawn more to the minor tonic than the relative major. So yes, it's your conditioning and your personal taste. Not "theory" at all.

E.g., it's like saying you prefer thriller novels to romantic ones, and asking if English grammar can explain why you feel that way. Well no - except that different kinds of language might be used by the writer, but your preference is still your preference. Music theory can name the details of the sound that you like, but not why you like them.

And it's only a "problem" if you feel that it is - i.e., you feel like you need to break out of it.

Firstly, the roman numerals are chords.
Progressions are made up of chords, not "intervals".
Each chord consists of root 3rd 5th (intervals counted from the root, counted up the scale from whichever note in the scale is the root. Sometimes the chords can have 7ths (they often do in blues and jazz, less often in rock.)

The notes you play have to follow the chords - i.e., you play notes in each chord, usually starting with the root, sometimes only the root (root only is quite common in rock). You don't just play "whatever sounds good". Or rather, you do, but "whatever sounds good" is notes that follow the chords! If you ignore the chords it won't sound good!

Example: 12 bar blues in A major.

Chords: I = A7, IV = D7, V = E7

Standard sequence (there are variants):
| A7 | A7 | A7 | A7 |
| D7 | D7 | A7 | A7 |
| E7 | D7 |A7 | A7 |

That's three lines, 4 bars each. (Sometimes there'll be an E7 in bar 12 as a "turnaround" back to the start.)

The notes in each chord are:

A7 (I) = A C# E G
D7 (IV) = D F# A C
E7 (V) = E G# B D

In both blues and jazz you can "walk" those notes - one note on each beat. In blues you can simplify it, maybe playing a repeating riff to fit each chord. If you are confident with those arpeggios, walking lines can include passing notes. E.e. a common walking line on two bars of an A7 chord (blues, jazz or rock) might be (one note per beat):

| A C# E F# | G F# E C# | (chord tones = |1 3 5 6 | b7 6 5 3 | )

Blues is a really common form in any jam session, because everyone knows the progression, and most people know a few variations. They'll just call a key, and you should know all the chords in that key. And - as bass player - you can basically just use the same ideas on every tune (obviously in whatever key is called).

Improvising is a different matter. You still have to follow the chords - improvise within the sequence. But the other advantage of blues - why beginners like it - is you can just improvise with the minor pentatonic of the key, on all the chords. It can obviously get boring unless you have good ideas, but at least it works. In this case - key of A major - the minor pentatonic is A C D E G.

In short, you need to listen to a lot of the kind of music you want to play - that you think you might get in jam sessions - and listen to what the bass is doing. It can take ages to explain in words what can be quite easy and obvious to hear in the music - and words can't explain the rhythmic feel anyway, which is crucial for the bass (even more important than the notes!). Naturally you can find guidance on youtube if you want it. Here's one on blues basics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLoPmrHHHJE (lots more like that).

t sounds like the Bbm is the i which would make the F the V and Gb would the a vi, but it's a major chord being used for the V.

Exactly. (Except Gb is VI, not vi. And some would write it as "bVI".)

But on the F, it's conventional - normal and traditional - for minor keys to use a major V chord. Only a misreading of theory would make you think that was strange.

The more familiar you get with minor key music, the more you'll see major V chords used. Certainly in classical music, and in the older forms of jazz and popular music, major V chords are used all the time. It's modal and folk influences on pop and rock which have led to more use of minor v chords (or using bVII chords in place of v) in minor keys.

IOW, you are misreading theory if you think any rules are being broken here. 😄

Same with switching any minor chord for a major - or vice versa. If you think it sounds good when you do it, you can be sure music theory will name and describe the practice for you - because it will be a "common practice". (You'll have heard it before, and that's why you think it "works".)

Terms like "secondary dominant" and "borrowed chords" or "modal interchange" describe the most common ways chords are changed from major ro minor or vice versa. You can read about them, but you will discover them all anyway the more music you learn to play.

Theory won't explain it. because explanation (answering "why") is not its business, Music explains music theory, not vice versa. (You want to know what a "secondary dominant" is? In key of C major, try using an A major chord to lead to Dm. That's a secondary dominant, "V/ii", V of the ii chord. No more no less. The term describes the sound, but the sound explains the term.)