u/lsu777

definitely one of the best, personally i think the half(flat bat) trainer using foam balls starting with side toss, then front toss, then machine over time is the best because it allows them to see ball flite path and understand what they did immediately if you teach them. It was my favorite tool for 9/10 and still is to this day.

on your Anectodal observation....I agree and Im prolly biased to that as Im mainly around that. They are the ones that take everything serious and normally the kid too and they are more likely to start strength training early, arm care early, track arm care, track arm speed, use radars to track RPE and in game fatigue etc.

i agree most youth athletes need way more strength and power training. most are much weaker than previous generations. Couple studies I have seen is that on average(not the top but actual median) todays 12 year old has ~8-10 lbs less lean dry tissue than kids born in the 80s and 90s and grip and pulling strength(chin ups) is roughly 35-40% lower.

I can usually tell when a kid is at risk....usually its because of three things

1) the parents are completely clueless and think rolling him out there 3 times a weekend is a great thing, throwing 100 innings in a year with no idea how many pitches he throws or any knowledge of anything

2) the parents are the opposite and never allow him to throw much between outings. only pitches, never throws.

3) their arm is writing checks their ass cant cash. I.e. they throw really hard based simply off mobility and moment arms(tall, skinny and weak AF).

the worst is the combo of 1 & 3 or 2 & 3.

and yea i agree many kids play too much, but most injuries are happening at the start of the season and mainly in the years where the mounds move back, especially if they move 50 directly to 60'6". this screams being under prepared both physical strength wise and for the demands of the game for that distance and the level needed to compete. this goes for all levels, from little league, to travel up to mlb. if it was strictly a volume issue, we would see spikes of injuries right at the end of seasons.....we see the opposite. and also see them after long time off

and sure we play way more games now but in general kids throw less. they dont throw the football, they arent out there playing whiffle ball with friends, blitz ball with friends etc. they pitch too much, throw too little.

oh well thats different, i thought you were saying in 1 month he is throwing 10++ mph faster lol.

but yes keep him throwing the football. doesnt always have to be max effort or max distance, can be just as a warm up.

the heavier ball will force him into deeper positions, force him to brace more etc. lots of reasons to do it.

playing another sport doesnt automatically increase athleticism either. that comes from intramuscular coordination, strength, and ability to use co contractions. Not saying it didnt do those things as he is very young but its not auto either. but playing another sport when young is a great thing too.

but yes continue to throw football couple times a week. many baseball players since Nolan have done that.

no in a month. unless he just didnt try before. impossible to clean up enough mechanics to get enough arm speed to do that if both are done at full intent, at least in a month.

not really mixed reviews on the studies its more people have a hard time letting go of what they were taught as kids from people they view as authority figures.

and yea there is a lot of consensus from people that understand what is actually happening

1) be strong enough to decelerate properly and stable in the unilateral positions no matter the age. Essentially be able to perform proper chin ups and be strong enough to hold a proper lunge position of 60s or so. i.e take strength training seriously.

2) use a dynamometer and ROM test to make sure ROM is fully restored and to test for fatigue in the muscles that support the elbow and shoulder. This would be where the ARMCARE device and app makes things easy

3) identify weaknesses and work to improve those through armcare

4) no year around competitive throwing...but also dont take huge breaks with no throwing either. Make sure you do a 4-6 week true on ramp, then 2-4 week of preseason throwing on the off the mound. essentially you want to slowly build up back to mound throws.

5) take recovery serious. make sure they get enough sleep and protein. fatigue from lack of sleep puts you at a huge risk of injury and prolly is the number 1 injury risk

6) long toss often. not 100% max long toss but long toss. look at the jaeger long toss program as an example

7) stop pitching back to back days where you are fatigued. even 20 pitches the day before is enough to fatigue the arm, no back to back days as much as possible. Dont go throw 75 pitches tournament 1 either. slow build

there are others but that is a good starting point. even though your kid is 10....start him on a proper strength training program, a proper program to strengthen his arm through a band routine and make sure he is getting plenty of sleep. at around 12, get the armcare device.

ummm no...he did not gain 10-15 mph in 1 month. not possible...no offense but you are clueless on that.

and if he did gain even 5+ in 1 month...you need to understand that he is at a huge risk of injury due to much higher stress on the arm than his body is used to.

Nope, we have tons of studies, number 1 predictor of velocity is mass up to roughly 185-190 lbs. after that it becomes more about certain mechanics but until then…mass is number 1, specifically lean mass.

Ftr not saying don’t take a break from competitive max effort throwing, I’m saying keep your arm moving and throwing some while you work on being a better athlete. If we sat down we would prolly agree.

I believe kids pitch too much, throw too little and that a complete shutdown with no throwing at all no matter what is way more harmful than helpful assuming they throw with no pain.

Also a huge believer in strength training to the point, I don’t believe someone should be able to throw period until they can do 5 strict chins because without the ability to do that, you don’t have the ability to decelerate properly putting more stress on elbow.

We would prolly agree on 99% of things

Can I ask why you would think those are harmful? Elbow valgus stress is mainly a reaction to arm velocity, those pitches are thrown with a slower arm speed than a fastball, therefore put less stress on the elbow. Now if you throw 27/30 pitches as curves/sliders, prolly a good chance you are causing excess fatigue putting you at risk. But just throwing curve and slider as normal pitching sequence is not going to cause extra arm stress and they can be thrown at anytime

Year around throwing is better…year around pitching is not. I’m not going to argue with you on this but the evidence and scientific literature is actually on my side. Andrew’s would argue the other way just based off his opinion. We have implemented stricter pitch counts, told people to take more time off yet injuries rates continue to go up.

But either way can be fine so long as the player/parent understands the demands of the game and follows a properly designed on ramp for 6ish weeks and then a 4 week preseason block

Now that is not going to leave much time for a real velo block to improve actual pitching….i understand you are a doctor and therefore risk adverse, not a coach, but the game demands what it demands in terms of metrics/skill…you are going to be risk adverse I get that, but still have to have time to actually improve.

Bottom line is there is no single one size fits all approach. Everyone has a different adaptation to volume, intensity, frequency and that’s why arm testing is so important pre and post throw. It’s why I preach the ArmCare device and app so much. Pitch smart sounds great but one kids adaptation to 40 pitches is different from others and we need to stop assuming it’s not.

There are ways to identify the fatigue in the muscles that absorb most of the forces during a throw. Fatigue in those muscles is the number 1 risk factor.

Yep…most kids pitch too much, throw too little and what happens is they are under prepared. Perfect example is guys on here wanting their kids to take a full 4-5 months off from throwing per year…that’s great in theory but when you start looking at time lines, that doesn’t leave much time for a real on ramp and preseason blocks. Most parents don’t understand why you need those blocks or how actually not throwing at all allows the arm to heal and organize tissue in a very unorganized manner.

If most arm injuries were from over use…we would see way more injuries in the late parts of the year compared to the start at all levels…yet we see the opposite.

I wanted to say thank you for the curveball comment. For some reason it’s really hard for people, especially on here, to understand that arm velocity is the #1 cause of elbow valgus stress and that curveballs due to arm speed unless stress on the elbow.

It’s the old myths that are hard to get people to let go of.

Wait...you are telling me that throwing an over weighted heavier implement max distance or max velo multiple times per week made your kids arm stronger?

WOW, I never thought that would be possible 😂

Sorry I had to be a smartass. Seriously, of course it made his arm stronger.

No you can’t. Shaved…sure, cracked…sure but you absolutely can not tell one bit of difference between a rolled bat and a properly broken in bat. You may think you can…but you can’t.

I get that, always has and one of the main reasons is the bigger fields start weeding out the smaller kids. Game gets hard and big quickly, this would only accelerate it.

I mean I don’t really care all of mine but one are already in bbcor. All mine pitched and sure I worried some but even in national level majors tournaments, never had an issue.

But I’m telling yall from years upon years of experience…the small kids will struggle and there will be tons of consequences from that type of move that will cause more and more kids to quit after being left behind

The better solution is making the fields bigger for majors level earlier or if you have to do something with the bats, go to 2-1/4” barrel with usssa standard

Disagree completely and there is a reason why so many quit at age 13

Have you been around small 12/13u kids trying to swing BBCOR on the bigger non LL fields?

absolutely. Ever seen a small 12 or 13u kid that is forced to swing bbcor in middle school ball? they cant get it out the infield. They are assed you in terms of being able to generate enough bat speed to get it out the infield...Seen plenty of kids quit because of that.

I watched majors level kids that could ball with drop 5 but hadnt hit puberty yet nor started lifting essentially get zero to 1 hits in 30 games and just be so devasted that they are essentially done with baseball.

the usssa bats make the game played like it is at higher levels. it makes the outfield actually matter. allows for home runs etc.

if you go to bbcor/usa you have to do exactly like LL did and go back to 46/60 so its remotely competitive and then that changes the whole way the game is played. then you will have parents whining that a Big Sully or Carlo Rivera throwing mid 80s at 12 is no longer fair or safe and will be calling to move the mound back....fine then the infield goes back and the small kids cant get it out the infield again.

im ok with the USSSA bats but I do think they should go back to the 2-1/4" barrel until 13u and 2-5/8 after.

I mean for me it dont matter that much and for most good majors kids, they will be able to ball out with wood or USA bats....but those AA tournaments, yea gonna suck for your kid to be in the outfield, big time.

and yea it may give hitters a false sense of security but USA and wood at younger ages gives the pitchers that same sense.

IMO the correct compromise is keep USSSA standard, but go to 2-1/4" skinny barrel until 13u and at 13u go USSSA drop 5 alloy only 60/90. bbcor at 14u

or keep the bats as is and just move majors/open divisions up in field length. I have been thinking that should be the case

9u majors still plays 46/65

10u-50/70
11u-50/70

12u-54/80

13u-60/90

14u-60/90 bbcor

i agree they are safer but yall do understand you essentially run all those late bloomers yall love so much out the game very early. all for something that is really damn rare, more rare than when most of us grew up. also understand the mounds are further back that what we played at starting at 11/12, so are the bases.

i get that, my point is, it really doesnt do much other than break the bat in fully and correctly so its uniform to avoid hot and dead spots and cracking.

no it doesnt.

that we can prolly agree with.

correct just breaks them in evenly and quickly.

rolling doesnt do anything but break them in properly. doesnt provide any advantage EV wise over a bat that has couple hundred swings on it and doesnt actually change the bat

USSSA bats allow the game to be played similar to the way mlb plays it. USA bats dont until around 12 at the earliest.

The amount of kids actually getting hurt is smaller than it was back in the 90s percentage wise.