u/markeydarkey2

Even without fancy options the base versions of their cars are expensive as hell. I imagine that their per-vehicle margins are pretty high but they spend a lot elsewhere (R&D + marketing?).

I tried Raising Canes for the first time the other day and was shocked at how bad it was, the fried chicken from the deli section of a supermarket tastes better. Other fried chicken chains like KFC, Popeyes, and Dave's Hot all make better tasting chicken because they aren't afraid to use the wonderful technology known as "seasoning".

The economics of distribution & manufacture of (green) hydrogen make it extremely expensive.

Oops, I meant the opposite there, will fix.

The IONIQ 5 is a bit boxier than the EV6 which hits it hard at higher interstate speeds. I regularly see ≥4.5mi/kWh when city driving in mine in fair conditions (55-70°F), sometimes even 5.0-5.5mi/kWh; my intercity-commute record is currently 5.6mi/kWh. Important to mention that I don't use i-Pedal (which keeps the front motor clutched on), that results in noticeably lower consumption for city driving.

The impact of fast charging for actively cooled batteries is pretty overstated, but the increased cycle frequency from the extensive highway driving this required definitely increases wear.

Yep! My range driving in the city is practically half twice of what it is driving at 80mph, in other words it cycles twice as fast per mile at high speeds. Battery wear behaviors in a BEV are basically inverse to the drivetrain in a combustion car because of that, it makes the battery lifespan for BEVs like this with lots of highway miles more impressive.

Edit: fixed a word mix-up

only 10,000lbs of battery!

Big boxes like this would need obscenely large batteries to be usable without a REx, the onboard generator makes a lot of sense for this usecase with current infrastructure & battery tech.

It's an EREV with a 140kWh battery.

Almost anything can run at cruising speed for 100s of thousands of miles if it's not getting hear cycled or driving short trips like something you take to work every week.

Total mileage matters for batteries because they are getting cycled regardless of speed.

That section houses the actual headlights.

I have negative interest in any company using AI generated images to announce products.

The Model X (+S) was discontinued earlier this year.

Yeah great plan. Mass layoffs of canadians

These automakers are doing that anyways, but there is a potential solution that allows for Chinese vehicles to be sold here without that problem; require Chinese-OEMs to do joint-ventures with domestic OEMs to build & sell here. Unfortunately the roadblock there is political, in-part because lots of folks do not want to essentially copy what China did successfully over the past few decades.

cheap disposable Chinese garbage

Outdated generalizations about Chinese manufacturing (dramatically better than it used to be) aside, it's not like General Motors has ever been known for high quality this century.

Maybe because they stole the R&D

Almost all of the most significant EV engineering breakthroughs of late have been coming from companies in China.

The Drive-E drivetrains were pretty advanced when they released last decade, but they haven't made many improvements to their engines since. I think their strategy at this point is to aggressively hybridize to make up for the difference.

EREVs generally have more range because of their larger batteries, but PHEVs can have similarly large batteries too. The biggest difference in operation is driving feel because you get full power regardless of whether the engine runs or not in an EREV, most PHEVs have a very limited power output in EV mode.

Mercedes says its plug-in hybrids already offer enough electric range for most daily driving needs.

The very German line of thinking here is funny, there are advantages to EREV drivetrains beyond just on-paper range. For example the E53 AMG PHEV makes a quite respectable 603hp combined in hybrid mode, but in EV-mode that drops to a maximum of 161hp.. for 5357lbs. An EREV E53 AMG would make full power regardless of whether the engine runs or not.

I also see quite a bit more of the current-gen 7-Series in my area (PNW college town) than recent S-Classes, my guess is that having an electric version helps because most of them are i7s.

And at least for Tesla, the batteries tend to degrade pretty quickly in the first year or two of use but then stabilize around 15%. I'm not sure if this is the case for other EVs, but its disingenuous to show first-year degradation without mentioning that

Other EVs like the IONIQ 5 see a half that degregation in the same time period, as did older Teslas. It is a weak point of newer 3/Y's.

A single example is not data. It could easily be an outlier. I want to see fleet averages. I could link outliers for Tesla too.

The study linked above shows averages across different models (including older and newer 3/Ys in the results), but the teslaroamer dataset shows higher per-year degregation on newer models than the older ones.

If most people would rather save a few thousand dollars for moderately slower DC fast charging, then that's probably the better design decision.

The e-GMP cars (profitable for HMG) are cheaper than a Y and charge faster.

I don't want to completely minimize charging speed, because it is important, but I think filling up in 15 minutes instead of 25 minutes doesn't matter for EV adoption nearly as much as being able to plug in at home and wake up to a full battery every morning.

I don't disagree with you on this but we're already self-selected to be fine with waiting an extra 15-30min occasionally on a road trip, lots of car buyers (irrational to an extent) still want faster stops. Quick charging is pretty dang nice, you spend less time at the charging station and have more flexibility on trips. Tesla doesn't need their cars to do 10-80% in 10 minutes ASAP but they would be better for it, their lack of battery charging progress has just become more glaring as fast fast fast charging EVs from China hit the market.

Where's the data showing greater longevity for Hyundai batteries compared to Tesla?

Recent Teslas have been seeing very high degregation that far exceeds what other EVs have been seeing. It's normal to see >10% degregation in a newer 3/Y (seems to be 2023+ with NMCA packs) after the first year or two now, while most other EVs need at least half a decade to reach that point. I already gave an example above of an IONIQ 5 with daily DCFC having 87% SoH at 410,000 miles, while Model Y's are reaching that SoH around 50K miles.

And cost is a huge factor. Tesla may be choosing lower cost over faster charging times.

Yes, but at a certain point they really should care about charging speeds. The Model 3/Y are made out of expensive alloys with a relatively fancy double-wishbone setup up front that is less cost effective than a strut setup because they want to be seen as a premium automaker. You can't position yourself as a premium automaker while min-maxxing in the battery department forever, but that's been their strategy of late.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're less advanced. It's just a design choice to better fit most people's needs.

And a lot of people need faster charging before they'll even consider an EV. I'll stress again that these vehicles would be so much better if Tesla was leading with battery tech again. CATL and BYD are wiping the floor with them nowadays in practically every aspect of battery performance/density/cost; I expected Tesla to at least match 5yr-old-eGMP charging performance by now.

I straight up do not believe you because Tesla used to quote 30 minutes and numerous charging tests indicate times around that mark, like this 32 minute result from 12-80%.

It's always a balance of performance, cost, and longevity.

I imagine cost is definitely in Tesla's favor here but charging performance and longevity are NOT. Their cars do not charge particularly well anymore, especially against Chinese OEMs with sub-10-minute 10-80% times on LFP packs with lifetime warranties.

I certainly wouldn't bet that Hyundai is more advanced than Tesla. If they were, they'd probably be doing better in the market.

That's not how marketshare works though, as batteries alone aren't the only part of the picture. Hyundai sells BEVs with batteries that charge much faster & degrade considerably slower. Imagine how much better Teslas would be if they could match even just that. The point being made above is that Tesla hasn't really made any improvements to their battery performance in recent years, and if anything it has become worse.

My M3P does 10-80 in 20 minutes

No it doesn't. The Model 3 Performance does 10-80% in around 30min (highland version is a bit slower.

They literally just built their own cathode factory and lithium refinery lol. No other car company has done that.

They're referring to the technological prowess of their batteries, not necessarily the manufacturing side. BYD trounces them in both parts anyways.

They're probably investing more in battery tech and doing more things in-house than anyone else.

If they are they don't have much to show for it. I drive an IONIQ 5, a car that was released 5 years ago with an 18min 10-80% time & comparable prices to Tesla's volume products. Five years later and Tesla still doesn't make anything with a remotely comparable 10-80% time, meanwhile BYD is selling BEVs that can do a nearly full charge (0-97%) in 9 minutes.