Many companies are sitting on a lot of cash and not using it, why not tax that cash and force them to use it or lose it?

It is often said that tax increases cost jobs because that money is no longer available to a company, but if the government only taxes profits then wouldn't reinvesting that money be preferable depending on the rate?

Similarly I have heard it said that many companies are sitting on a lot of cash and not doing anything with it because of fear of a bad economy. Wouldn't the best way to jump start a recovery be to attempt a tax structure that would discourage holding cash and not using it?

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Pendergrass

Financial Management 101:

Company's usually don't sit on cash unless the investment environment is really bad (or during a period of deflation, which seldom, if ever, occurs under modern centralized banking).

A manager's job is to maximize the ROI (return on investment) of the company's assets (technically, they want to maximize the ROE [return on equity] to shareholders, but this requires efficient leveraging as well as maximizing ROI... so don't worry about that too much, leveraging has little bearing in this discussion.)

Cash is essentially a non-interest bearing asset, so it's ROI is zero (cash equivalents have a negligible yield, but once you put inflation into the picture, it doesn't really matter). You actually get a negative real return in an inflationary environment, so you really don't want to be sitting on cash under normal conditions.

Managers use cash for 3 different activities: operating cash flows (i.e. cash register money and money for inventories, etc.), investment cash flows (buying competitors, equipment, opening up new markets), or financing cash flows (retiring debt). Good managers will put the cash to use in whatever is going to get them the best return.

For many companies, in this current macro environment, there are not a lot of good investment opportunities: low interest rates, weak demand, high market volatility and uncertainty about popular risk models that were used in the 2000's all contribute to this. A lot of companies would rather retire debt (which has the same essential return as the interest rate on the debt you are retiring) or just sit on the cash until the investment waters are less choppy. What happens is that managers use risk-adjusted rates of return to determine when an investment is worth it or not (return/risk). Low interest rates (aka the return) divided by high risk (aka the aforementioned bad macro conditions) make for low returns on possible investment projects.

If you start taxing wealth in the way you are describing, it would compel managers to make bad or wasteful investment decisions, because you are creating a negative hurdle rate (which is the rate of return required for an investment activity to be worth it for the company, and which is usually equal to real marginal financing costs). This would make the economy worse, not better, because a whole lot of capital would be allocated inefficiently. If you set the "wealth tax" at 3%, I would rather put my money in an investment that yields -2% than hold onto my cash, and investing in that kind of vehicle is just stupid, for me and the economy in general.

What really needs to happen is for the macro environment to stabilize... and that leads us into the current debate over which action or lack of action is best for achieving this aim.

themandotcom

spot on. basically firms are negative on their outlook on the longterm economic situation in america & abroad -> they don't invest -> increase unemployment ->firms become negative on the longterm economic situation.

Knorssman

i was about to post a similar idea, well done!!

i think that the market can make decisions about the economy better than obama can

one trend to keep in mind is that the cost for the consumer to have Lasik eye surgery and cosmetic surgery have been going down over time (not regulated by government) however, life saving operations which are coming closer to being monopolized by the government are going up in costs.....

rendel [OP]

Wouldn't that suggest that some firms aren't investing in perhaps more risky or low return investments not because they are a bad idea but because they are in a recessionary mindset?

There is no way to know that your return would be negative in many investments. You could forecast a range for the return. Alternatively if all companies are at the same time implementing investments they were holding off on that were previously cash then wouldn't that stimulate demand and therefore increase the return on all those investments? It's sort of like putting a stick in bike spoke of the vicious cycle.

Pendergrass

In finance, risk and return are practically the same thing. Risk is a perception, return is the price set by the market for the aggregate level of risk perception. This is why "riskier" borrowers have to pay a larger rate of interest on borrowed funds. The things that go into a risk calculation are numerous and dependent on the type of activity we are talking about, but suffice it to say, the backbone of finance for at least the last 400 years has been the idea that return should be aligned with risk.

Wouldn't that suggest that some firms aren't investing in perhaps more risky or low return investments not because they are a bad idea but because they are in a recessionary mindset?

A "recessionary mindset" is one where everything looks like a bad idea, because businesses are not generating cash flows from operations. I am not exactly sure what you mean, because a "more risky" asset and a "low return asset" are generally opposites, but if you are trying to say that managers are accepting subnormal or suboptimal returns because of the current suboptimal macro conditions, yes, that is happening.

There is no way to know that your return would be negative in many investments. You could forecast a range for the return.

That is exactly what firms do. I am not sure how versed you are in statistics, but part of the problem is determining the correct mean return and also the correct distribution of other possible returns. A normal distribution doesn't cut it. The problem is that in a normal distribution, 99.9% of everything that might happen is only slightly more than 3 standard deviations away from normal, and the downside is as big as the upside. Most investment centers used modified normal distributions, but they were almost all too narrow, and failed to properly measure the likelihood of long-tail, "black swan"-type events, especially those on the downside.

Alternatively if all companies are at the same time implementing investments they were holding off on that were previously cash then wouldn't that stimulate demand and therefore increase the return on all those investments? It's sort of like putting a stick in bike spoke of the vicious cycle.

That is an very elementary hypothesis that sadly seems to have been adopted by many of our elected officials. It is wrong, however, and is a gross oversimplification of the economy that only considers aggregate demand. Once capital structure is brought into the model, your hypothesis depends on the capital foundation of the macroeconomy being "normal", and the lack of demand being completely psychological... essentially this type of situation would be a justification for "Keynesian stimulus".

Unfortunately, capital foundations are not normal. Business, households, and even the government are all over-leveraged, which essentially means the foundation is shaky because there is too much debt and not enough equity to finance operations. This means that the returns to retiring debt are higher than normal, and in this case, higher than the returns on investment activity. Until business and household debt gets paid down, or until the Fed inflates its way to higher interest rates, the incentives to invest won't be there, because investment will not the most efficient use of cash flows.

mjmed

At face value, that might work. But think about it this way:

Say you have $1000. And if you don't spend it, you lose it. You've got to spend all of it, or at least almost all of it, or it's gone.

The catch is you can only spend it on four things, your options are rice, paper and pencils, 4 function calculators, and folding chairs. Maybe you need some paper and pencils but you don't use those at a very fast rate. You probably need at least one or two calculators, but you certainly don't need a lot of them and for personal use you don't really need a big fancy scientific calculator. You might need a new chair but again you don't need a thousand dollars worth of them. You could spend it all on rice, you will always need a steady supply of rice and it will probably make you money in the long term because it's cheaper than other foods. At the same time, there's no reason to spend 1k on rice right now when you only need some.

This is like a corporation being forced to spend its money or lose it buy buying consumable items, technology upgrades, long term durable goods, or people (rice was the best I could come up with as a good you could buy a lot of, could save/make you money) you can use your money on people, and they might make you money, but it still might not be the best use of that money for your company.

What would be accomplished is somewhat arbitrarily moving money from one company to another, causing faux demand where none really existed in the first place. That's the stuff bubbles are made of.

Does that help?

crocodile7

somewhat arbitrarily moving money from one company to another

Isn't that how the economy works? How do you distinguish faux from real demand?

mjmed

Forcing a company to use money or have it taken from them vastly changes conditions for that company. Instead of saving the money for A, B, and/or C, they must now use it on G, D, or Y. This presents the problems of inefficient use of the companies assets (i.e. using it to purchase things they don't really need, labor included) as well as it being only a temporary influx of capital which will not be sustained, so the companies that sell G, D, and Y might think that they have more demand than actually exists, and will hire more workers now, who will only have to be laid off in a year when this stimulus ends. Not to mention the fact that you make the overall economy less efficient because the workers that the G, D, and Y companies hire will be making products that aren't actually useful to the economy.

rendel [OP]

Could you, instead of taxing all the cash companies are keeping, increase the tax on profits to a point that would make investments they were holding off on more appealing than taking the money as profit? As in you would make them at least think a little harder if they could possibly find some use for the money in their company?

mjmed

Well, at first glance that might work, but we run in to a few similar problems. First, if your goal is to make a company upgrade/invest in itself faster or earlier than it otherwise would (say 3-4 years earlier than normal) all that really does is shift the purchase of whatever upgrades 3-4 years into the future. So today you will have an increase in sales at the other company, but four years from now you won't. You just shifted it from then to now.

The other, underlying assumption we would make in creating this profit tax, with the purpose of forcing businesses to make investments they wouldn't otherwise make is this: If a business wouldn't make X investment now, why aren't they? It's certainly not because they think that if they did make an investment in X it would make them more money. If the goal of a CEO/business is to make the most profits over the long term (as opposed to a ton this year and none next year) you want to do what is best for your business. If you need to expand, expand, if you need to upgrade, you upgrade, if you need to hire/fire you do that. Your incentive as CEO is to do what is best for the company to grow it into the #1 business in the industry, however that may be. Different companies have different strategies, and it varies by industry, etc. but the overall goal is the same (e.g. Old Navy and Armani have different strategies and arguably are in different industries and would therefore need to do different things). This is all to say that raising this tax to use it or lose it is similar, but on a smaller scale than, the cash holdings tax as it assumes that a business is not trying to make the best use of its resources. If we are the govt and we want the companies to hire, or to stimulate demand so that other companies hire, we are assuming that we know more about these businesses than they do. We also assume that hiring more people is what the company needs to do (since our goal is to create jobs) when, in reality, if there is no extra demand or if an efficiency upgrade is better then there is no reason to hire people.

Does that make sense?

Bindher_Dundat

Are you high?

[deleted]

Sitting on cash might be a waste, but malinvestment is worse. Taxing cash holdings is like a subsidy for flushing resources down the toilet.

Bindher_Dundat

back up....beep beep beep.

You can't tax cash holdings. No way no how. That's why its such a silly scenario, foir many reasons. I keep writing and deleting different reasons why this could never be.

But as a hypothetical, ....., no wait this doesn't even work as a hypothetical.

Pendergrass

You can't tax cash holdings. No way no how.

Sure you can.

France and several other countries that I don't recall have balance sheet taxes that are a proportion of net worth, which isn't only cash per se, but does include cash. They are subject to rampant evasion and dodging, but they still do generate considerable revenue for the government.

I think that whoever said that taxing wealth is unconstitutional might be interpreting the 16th amendment a bit broadly, but I am by no means a scholar of constitutional law. In any case, if they needed to, congress could amend the constitution. Maybe if there was mass popular support for such an amendment (say, 12-24 months of 20% (~40-50% real) unemployment and a conception that the rich are still making money; kind of like today, only twice as bad... maybe like next year??? We would need to wake up and start electing independent politicians though).

We are actually subjected to a constant government created "tax" on our cash, only it is not explicitly called a tax, it is called inflation. It has the exact same effect on your cash holdings as a direct tax, and it is done purposefully for the benefit of the government. We can argue about semantics, but the effect in the end is almost exactly the same (the notable difference being inflation's effect on interest rates, which creates more deadweight loss for people like you and me to absorb).

mantra

Maybe you are...

Bindher_Dundat

am.

Delwin

Most of that cash would quickly vanish overseas where it can't be taxed.

cassander

Wealth taxes are unconstitutional, for one.

Pendergrass

has that ever been formally ruled, or is that your own interpretation? Not that I disagree with you that it should be unconstitutional (it's sound economic policy), just curious to know.

16th Amendment: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

cassander

It has been ruled, though I can't remember the case. The 16th amendment only applies to income, not wealth that has already been acquired. Any tax on wealth would be a direct tax, and therefore must still be apportioned among the states.

crocodile7

Aren't real-estate taxes actually wealth taxes? Why would it matter whether assets are in cash or property? Not saying you're wrong, but it is essential to know the actual legal interpretation, without it we're talking hot air.

cassander

They are, which is why all property and land taxes in the US are charged by state governments, not the federal.

CrosseyedAndPainless

The 16th amdt also modifies text from Art. I Sec. 9, which concerns limits placed on the authority of Congress:

"No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken."

But the 16th only allows the taxation of incomes, not accumulated wealth. Since corporations are not counted in the Census, I don't see how such a tax could ever be "proportional" to it.

As for enumeration, maybe you could argue that the tax would be authorized by the Commerce Clause, which is pretty much meaningless as a restraint on the power of Congress today.

[deleted]

They have cash because debt is cheap now. If it became expensive to have cash, they would just use it to pay down their debt. Nothing would change.

OnionTears

Double taxation.