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Voldemort and Dumbledore were likely the most powerful wizards in the world (by far) during their time

81 points · submitted Nov 2022 by u/Zephrok · Discussion · archived

This topic comes up a fair bit but what is interesting is we don't have much information on the strength of other magical communities due to the Britain-centric perspective of the books.

We really only have two sources of hard evidence - character statements and the Wizarding World War.

The Wizarding World War was just that - a world war that is implies to have mirrored WW2. This implies that every major player in the wizarding world would have been playing close attention or have been involved in the conflict. However, Grindelwald is stated to have been unstoppable, until Dumbledore finally came out to face him. If there were other wizards of Dumbledore's caliber in Europe, the USA or Asia, why were they unable to confront Grindelwald? Why was so much emphasis put on Dumbledore "finally" moving to confront Grindelwald?

There are 3 explainations:

  1. No other "great" wizard bothered. This seems unlikely, as at the very least Europe was getting raped.
  2. The other "great" wizards were scared. This implies they were below Dumbledores level.
  3. They tried and failed. Which obviously means they werent on the above level.

Most likely some combination of 2 and 3 are what actually happened, with a small sprinkling of 1.

Character statements are obviously less reliable but we have statements like:

  1. Voldemort is the greatest Dark wizard ever.
  2. Dumbledore is the greatest wizard alive.

Conclusion: Dumbeldore, Grindelwald and later Voldemort were alone at the top, or at best had very few peers.

EDIT: Furthermore, Dumbledore served the as Supreme Mugwump of the International Confederation of Wizards (?–1995) and Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot (?–1995; 1996–1997). He was also offered Minister for Magic multiple times. This does not prove that he is more powerful than anyone else, but it is interesting that a bunch of politicians (who by nature are desperate to overthrow one another) would bow such deference and power to Dumbledore.

EDIT 2: Other commenters have made the very salient point that Grindelwald was explicitly threatening the Statue of Secrecy, which every wizarding authority had a hugely vested interest in upholding. Given this, it seems impossible that the vast majority of (otherwise neutral) wizards would not have opposed him on this basis alone

61 comments · 91% upvoted · other discussions

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[deleted] 14 points · Nov 2022

Um... when did Wizarding World War happen?

Zephrok [OP] 21 points · Nov 2022

The war Grindelwald waged was implied to be a close mirror to WW2 which implies that it was a world war.

[deleted] 10 points · Nov 2022

Its was likely focused more towards Europe and maybe the US. The Americans didn't really feel affected in the FB.

And I can't imagine countries like China, Japan or India as having been involved in the war. A lot of the countries in Asia and Africa only got involved because they were colonies of European countries.

Wizarding Colonialism was probably not a thing because the difference in technology wouldn't be that high.

WorthIrrelevant 2 points · Jan 2023

I dont see why wizard colonialism wouldnt be a thing, if one side develops even one revolutionary spell that gives them the upper hand it could allow them to keep down the other side for a long time.

It might explain why the names of the magical schools are so goofy.

amkwiesel 16 points · Nov 2022 · Slytherin

The most probable point is that a lot of them simply didn't care. Maybe some even somewhat agreed with Grindelwald or even if they were on the same level as him and chose to fight him he defeated them. Just because they are powerful dosnt mean that they are like Dumbledore. Honestly if I were at the level I probably would only care that I abouy those closest to me are well protected and out if harms way.

empress_ayriss 23 points · Nov 2022

You're not taking into account apathy nor those that agreed with grindelwald who weren't inclined to intercede.

Let's take ww2 the us and Russia were not inclined to stop Germany until attacked by them. Not their problem til it was. Many wizards or witches may not have cared about the statue falling but didn't want to go against their government or put their loved ones in danger. Severely discounting selfish nature of people.

As to those that may have stood against him and fallen you are forgetting 2 important facts

  1. Percival greaves was apparently adept enough for it not to be suspicious that he was skilled when impersonated by grindelwald.

  2. Ties into 1, he had the elder wand. It's unbeatable , we don't know how albus circumvented that to defeat him or if others were involved. But Albus would have an advantage of knowing the wand was the elder wand and having been in a relationship knew grindelwald better than anyone else.

As to Voldemort he's not seen as a threat the rest of the world aren't seen caring to lift a wand to stop him they see it as Britain and Dumbledores problem. Probably why Igor fled back Voldemort didn't have an affect on Bulgaria.

Finally to why Dumbledore has all those fancy titles (other than jk pumping him up) great leaders don't seek power. Most probably focus on magic rather than politics.

Zephrok [OP] 10 points · Nov 2022

I haven't watched the magical beasts series so I don't know about Percival Greaves, though I' not sure I would consider that series canon with Mcgonnagal changing age.

Your other points are absolutely reasonable!

empress_ayriss 3 points · Nov 2022

Meh tbf they change Dumbledores age too he used to be 150ish but as of canonical death like 115 so... yeah ffb isn't the best but it does give us a good view of grindelwalds power and goals at least 1&2, 3 was a contradictive mess.

Tsorovar 1 points · Nov 2022

Percival greaves was apparently adept enough for it not to be suspicious that he was skilled when impersonated by grindelwald.

That was also set in 1927. Presumably he got more powerful in the next 15-20 years

empress_ayriss 2 points · Nov 2022

Obviously he had the elder wand...similarly was his power truly his or the wand albus was gifted too but we see him struggle the same before he procured the wand ministry had him leashed. Both of the greatest wizards of modern Era only were known as such post obtaining the hallow. Tom was truly powerful but his insanity and short sighted arrogant nature limited him this may have been the case for other wizards and witches imagine if luna were as powerful as Tom she would be hindered by her belief in nonsensical creatures or Neville who had little or no interest in being a combative wizard preferring his plants. We are shown how they are perceived not how powerful they could become. Harry is powerful he isn't very skilled he skates by mostly on luck and determination but everyone sees him as chosen one likewise people didn't understand where Dumbledore and grindelwalds power came from.

Spider_j4Y 16 points · Nov 2022

Well to be fair the credence put on dumbledore facing grindelwald is likely due to the personal connection between the two they were very old friends.

As for why other powerful wizards didn’t stop grindlewald either a.) they supported him and didn’t want to or b.) they didn’t give a fuck because they were entirely in effected by the war seeing as how grindlewald sought to subjegate muggles why the hell would a couple of extraordinary wizards/witches care?

Zephrok [OP] 27 points · Nov 2022

I don't think the relationship between Dumbledore and Grindelwald was widely known until Rita Skeeter published *The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledores*.

It is definitely possible that great wizards the werent bothered, as I stated. However, a few points:

  1. No one likes being subjugated - especially wizards that can do literally whatever they want by virtue of their power. Grindelwald did not seem like the power sharing type, with his cruelties, ambitions of greatness and grievances towards lesser wizards restricting him.
  2. Grindelwald, fundamentally, was a dark lord. A great wizard might not care if muggles suffer, but that does not mean they would want dark magic to pervade society, or for wizarding society to turn cruel and immoral.
  3. As for great wizards supporting Grindelwald - if they were, then where were they when Grindelwald was defeated? And where were they after - why did they not take control of the war effort. As we have seen from Voldemort's 2 wars, a single great wizard is enough to sustain an existential threat. If any dark wizard capable of beating Dumbledore had been present in Grindelwald's forces, than you would expect that they would have continued fighting. However Grindelwald's defeat was enough to end the war.
[deleted] 3 points · Nov 2022

Why would you leave your home and safety to go to a war? Would you? Did you pack a bag and go help out in Ukraine? If not, why not?

It's really silly to suggest that just because you believe people in far off lands are cruel and immoral that you would go fight them.

Zephrok [OP] 8 points · Nov 2022

No I did not. But if I were able to single-handidly stop the war with magical power, then I would.

Kage_Mitarashi 4 points · Nov 2022

If you have the power to do something, do something impactful, if I had magic as powerful as either Albus or Gellert I'd have gone to war in a heartbeat to protect the people I love, because that war was threatening the world if Gellert had won the war he'd have subjugated Humanity; wizard and muggle alike.

Also using the war in Ukraine as an example is kinda moot, most people don't have the capabilities or skills to fight in a war in real life, However in the HP universe 11 year olds are given weapons of mass destruction for school learning. Now if I was as powerful as Gellert or Albus (strong enough to intervene in the war) and had the skills to keep up with them damn straight I'd go to war.

In the world of Harry Potter, a child became a war hero.

And no it's not silly to assume anything of the sort, think about it not from the real world perspective but from the hp universe if you have the power. Use it to better the world. With the kind of power wizards and magical entities within the HP universe have and display, it kinda flips our realities logic on its head. Magic is real and if you have the power to change the world you can. So why not fight?

UkraineWithoutTheBot 3 points · Nov 2022

It's 'Ukraine' and not 'the Ukraine'

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[deleted] 2 points · Nov 2022

Because the majority of people do not seek out confrontation on a large scale particularly when it risks their livelihood, life and the life and stability of their loved ones.

In HP Universe consider the absolute lack of fighting back against the muggleborn registry. Dementors in courtrooms for the sham of trials for "stealing magic". You say 11 year old are given "weapons of mass destruction".. where was the fight back in country let alone out of country? Surely wizards and Witches should be taking the streets back from a rogue agency (the ministry). We get some details in canon but it's largely a very small collection of Order members.

Kage_Mitarashi 3 points · Nov 2022

Because the majority of people do not seek out confrontation on a large scale particularly when it risks their livelihood, life and the life and stability of their loved ones.

I suppose you're right but this way of thinking is exactly why Fudge's administration failed, other than Fear, and bigotry the next biggest reasons for Tom's raise to power the second time 'round was due to Cowardice and Complacency, and literally all of his followers except for the ones in Azkaban got off with a slap on the wrist and were in power when ol voldy came back.

In HP Universe consider the absolute lack of fighting back against the muggleborn registry. Dementors in courtrooms for the sham of trials for "stealing magic".

At this point the government wasn't being run by people who cared for any of this, it was all death eaters, sympathizers, and people fearing for their life no one was safe, and people were again absolutely terrified cause Old voldy was good at making People scared.

You say 11 year old are given "weapons of mass destruction"..

But am I wrong? Wands can literally with the right spells level cities. A group of twenty wizards with training and the right spells could probably wipe a city off the map before anyone could do anything. Hell some of the basic spells in the HP verse are terrifying when applied to something like war or murder.

Surely wizards and Witches should be taking the streets back from a rogue agency (the ministry). We get some details in canon but it's largely a very small collection of Order members.

Yes, they should have, they all should have fought back the moment they realized literal children were fighting this war, it's not like death eaters were anything other than Human, the whole of wizarding Britain could have fought back they all have a weapon on them nearly at all times and we're taught how to kill with it in school, I actually think they should have gotten off their asses and fought for their loved ones and their neighbors their way of life was being extremely threatened. I'd sure as hell fight for those around me even if I was terrified.

It just goes to show how shit the people of wizarding Britain were. Wizarding Britain was either terrified or complacent, both are bad in this situation.

Tsorovar 2 points · Nov 2022

Because the majority of people do not seek out confrontation on a large scale

We're not talking about the majority of people, though, we're talking about wizards who have spent a lifetime achieving the most powerful combat skills possible

Tsorovar 2 points · Nov 2022

We know Grindelwald's war spread at least across a large part of Europe. There is no "home and safety" when the war comes to you

[deleted] 1 points · Nov 2022

The OP presented this question from a global perspective, mentioning all of Europe, USA and Asia..

_vishie_ 10 points · Nov 2022

The muggle World War II was a 'world war' but that doesn't mean that the same is true of the conflict going on between Grindelwald and the various magical authorities of Europe. Wizarding politics very much do not follow muggle trends, even when the two overlap. Even then, there were several neutral and uninvolved parties in World War II not some global free for all. It would be entirely feasible for powerful wizards and witches outside of the affected areas of Europe to ignore the conflict there so long as it didn't affect them.

Also, nobody calls the Grindelwald conflict the "Wizarding World War."

And your point number two, where you imply that being deterred from fighting Grindelwald means that nobody was stronger than Dumbledore, doesn't hold up. There are numerous ways of avoiding conflict with a potential enemy that aren't straightforwardly based on strength. By this logic there's no way to figure out the strength of anyone who sided with or was neutral towards Grindelwald.

The statements 'Voldemort is the greatest dark wizard ever' and 'Dumbledore is the greatest wizard alive' both come from citizens of magical Britain, which is an extremely insular enclave with a scope further narrowed by their history of civil war.

NaoSouONight 12 points · Nov 2022

The muggle World War II was a 'world war' but that doesn't mean that the same is true of the conflict going on between Grindelwald and the various magical authorities of Europe.

I disagree on this point. Grindewald was very much so a threat to the other authorities of the world, even if on principle alone.

He was in direct conflict with the ICW, which also includes countries outside of Europe. And unless you discount Magical Beasts as a canon source, he had made direct terrorists attacks on American soil as well.

And even if you do discount Magical Beasts and only consider the books to be canon, it doesn't change the fact that the ICW is a world authority and Grindewald was very much at war with it and fighting against its very core principles that every country participant agreed to.

His actions would have had consequences for everyone as he would no doubt expose magic in his goal of subjugating Europe, which affects everyone in the world. Everyone had a vested interest in stopping him at this point and nobody seemed to be able to do it.

As the war reached its climax, I can't imagine an argument as to why any country would be holding off on their own super wizards considering the stakes.

Zephrok [OP] 6 points · Nov 2022

I completely agree with your points. I don't think there is absolute evidence that Dumbeldore et al are a cut above the rest, but in the absence of other evidence I take this position.

It is also interesting to take a narrative perspective - Dumbledore and Voldemort were both intentionally written so as to untouchable apart from one another. Again, no proof that a Ugandan wizard could not have beaten them both, but I tend to lean into the narrative in this case.

simianpower -2 points · Nov 2022 · :ravenclaw_author:

Well, then you've ended your own discussion. You believe this because you choose to. And that's all. What's the point of having a discussion where the entire topic is "I believe X because I want to with no supporting evidence"? There's nothing to discuss then! /u/_vishie_ made some good points, which you agree with, and then fall back to "because I want to believe this". If that's your answer to counterpoints, then this entire post is meaningless.

Zephrok [OP] 6 points · Nov 2022

You misunderstand me - I agree that taking an opposing view is reasonable. I'm saying there isn't any more evidence than what i have presented and so beyond that people are free to take whatever view they wish.

simianpower 0 points · Nov 2022 · :ravenclaw_author:

Ahh, you're going with an "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" philosophy. Which is good. I don't disagree that your viewpoint is possible, just that it's exclusively possible. But that begs the question, "what are you actually asking for here?" There's nothing in canon to contradict opposing options, but also nothing to support them. So fic writers can do what they like with it, leaving nothing to debate or discuss, right?

Zephrok [OP] 2 points · Nov 2022

I am happy to debate certain topics, like how likely I think it is for other wizards to engage Grindelwd if they had the ability and more, but I am quite happy to let my post speak for itself as delving into complex society and military commentary is worthy of its own post.

Fic writers can of course write as they wish though I think that a story that respects the powerful figures of canon are usually better than otherwise.

simianpower 0 points · Nov 2022 · :ravenclaw_author:

You can do both, though. It's not that hard to say that Dumbledore and Voldemort are the top recent magical talents of Britain, and among the top five of Europe, top 15-20 of the world. That respects what we see of them and also acknowledges that the books have a very narrow scope, only concerning about 1% of the world population at the time. It's extremely difficult for me to believe that the top two to three wizards in the world all came out of just that 1% of the population, especially since less technological societies are MORE likely to produce powerful magicals while simultaneously having a larger percentage of the population.

Zephrok [OP] 1 points · Nov 2022

I think its unlikely that Grindelwald would be seen so unbeatable if there were 20 people in the world who could face him. Saying that, I don't think it is a problem to write a fic with other powerful wizards and it may as you say require less suspension of belief.

simianpower 1 points · Nov 2022 · :ravenclaw_author:

Look at MMA for a counter example. "Unbeatable" fighters are taken down all the time. Why? Because they're only "unbeatable" to average fighters, but at the top tier there are dozens at a similar level. They're just called unbeatable until they're beaten. And in a wizard fight at that level, you win or you die, so all the top powerhouses are "unbeatable".

Zephrok [OP] 1 points · Nov 2022

I see your point but the difference is those fighters are fed fodder by promoters whilst Grindelwald was at war. Dumbledore had people like Flitwick around hin who won dueling comps and yet no one questions his abilities.

Zephrok [OP] 1 points · Nov 2022

I see your point but the difference is those fighters are fed fodder by promoters whilst Grindelwald was at war. Dumbledore had people like Flitwick around hin who won dueling comps and yet no one questions his abilities.

[deleted] 5 points · Nov 2022

I've always explained it away via diplomacy / the relationships of certain magical powerblocks to each other.

There's a bunch of worlbuilding behind it, but essentially Dumbledore isn't that alone as the greatest wizard alive, but he was the only one at the time that A) bothered, B) didn't agree with Grindelwald and C) his arrival anywhere was relatively uncomplicated due to his global image as a teacher and scholar, rather than an Auror or otherwise more militarily inclined super powerful wizard. In other words, the magical nations trusted Dumbledore to not just pick up where Grindelwald left it after he defeated him.

Another reason I've hinted at in snippets and some dialogue written is that Hogwarts actually was the greatest school for magic worldwide. It was the Voldemort Wars that broke Hogwarts due to drainbrain and casualties. So both Dumbledore and Voldemort, next to their sheer brilliance, did have the absolute best education they could possibly get, further widening the gap between them and the next best wizards and witches.

Temeraire64 2 points · Nov 2022

If there were other wizards of Dumbledore's caliber in Europe, the USA or Asia, why were they unable to confront Grindelwald? Why was so much emphasis put on Dumbledore "finally" moving to confront Grindelwald?

Another possibility is that their magical skills didn't really translate well into combat. Maybe they were great at potions, or Divination, or something like that.

Or they might have been busy with other things. Maybe they were a Chinese wizard and were focused on the Japanese invading their country, for example.

JonasS1999 3 points · Nov 2022

The thing with pepole on Dumbledores level is their masters in multiple areas. Not one of them would be combat applicable? Wouldnt say potions would put you on their level withour additional mastery in many more subjects

Oldtreeno 2 points · Nov 2022

This is sort of in line with my thought - sort of focused on what we mean by 'powerful'. It could be possible that say Xeno' Lovegood was uber-powerful but never applied it in a productive way due to being absolutely batty.

It doesn't make the statement that those two are the most powerful unreasonable, it just builds in an assumed 'in a fight, including willingness and ability to get there'.

For one of the other replies, skill and power are arguably different - unless we're defining power as who would win in a fight - eg who could do the strongest protego etc could be a measure of power and the wand might play a part in that too

Zephrok [OP] 2 points · May 2023

Super late, but great point I hadn't thought of! We're presented Wizards as generalists, bit a super powerful seer could be just as influential.

MuricanGamer 2 points · Nov 2022

I always thought the Wizarding War was only ever in Europe, and only parts of Europe at that. For instance, neither Ron nor Hermione knew about Grindelwald's mark (the Deathly Hallows mark) it was only Viktor Krum who saw it as Grindelwald's symbol.

Zenophilious Love good, (Luna's dad whatever his name is) had to explain that it was the Deathly Hallows mark first.

Also I think they stated that Voldemort did send Death Eaters to other parts of the world, but really Voldemort's regime was really only in Europe. (I think JK was inferring how Nazism came over to America but from what I understand wasn't readily accepted.)

Plus to me at least, the Wizarding world seems pretty Xenophobic by nature. I mean Wizards don't even know what other sports are in the muggle world even though they live side-by-side

Worldly-Pollution381 3 points · Nov 2022

I find it highly unlikely that England had all the powerful wizards in the world. More likely, like in the really world, Europe, China, Africa, America’s, etc… all were focused on their own areas of influence. Each one would claim so and so from their countries as the best.

NaoSouONight 14 points · Nov 2022

To be fair, Grindewald wasn't from England. I don't think we know his place of birth precisely, but he was educated in Durmstrang.

JonasS1999 4 points · Nov 2022

Can also add if the magical world links with the non magical, Uk had direct or indirect control over 1/4 of the worlds land area and more population wise with India when Gellert were conquering the world

[deleted] 2 points · Nov 2022

Britain conquered India because of their technological advantages. It is unclear how that translates to magic.

Cyfric_G 5 points · Nov 2022

Yeah. It's very strange to assume that India, which is a HUGE country, was steamrolled by the British magicals. Unless you assume Indian magic is somehow inferior, there's no technological advantage.

JonasS1999 3 points · Nov 2022

Unless of course you assume its even remotely like India pre british arrival which wasn't exactly unifed and the British putting them against eachother.

Had they been unifed presumably the best the british could of managed would be getting them addicted to opium like they did the chinese.

TheDarkNight6789 -7 points · Nov 2022

In Harry Potter The Wizarding Wars mirror the Civil War in terms of light witches and wizards(The Union) vs dark witches and wizards(The Confederation). Dumbledore and Voldemort are without a doubt the most power in Wizarding Britain. For the rest of the world there could be witches and wizards who match Dumbledore in terms of power or surpass his strength. The reason we never seen them is because Voldemort was never a global threat only a threat to Britian.

Zephrok [OP] 8 points · Nov 2022

But you see my point about Grindelwald - he was an immediate threat to Europe at the very least and to the rest of the world too. Why wasn't he defeated by some powerful French or German wizard?

TheDarkNight6789 2 points · Nov 2022

Grindelwald was a threat to the global Wizarding World he wanted magical superiority over muggles all across the globe. He was going to shatter the statue of secrecy. As for why powerful wizards from other countries didn't step in, I'll admit I don't know. All we know from cannon is in Wizarding Britain people were begging Dumbledore to step in and take down Grindelwald nobody ever mentioned calling foreign sorcerers for help.

ORigel2 1 points · Nov 2022

I see Grindelwald and Dumbledore as being the most powerful wizards in the world. Magical governments all over Europe were opposing Grindelwald, but he had actual armies and substantial popular support. Grindelwald was also being supported by the Nazis-- I see him as being a pawn of the Nazis rather than the other way around. And he had ambitions to turn on the Muggle Nazis, and the Nazis knew it but thought that they would crush him after he was no longer useful to them. Turns out the Muggle Nazis were right as the anti-Grindelwaldian forces began a successful offensive very quickly after the Nazi regime fell. Soon they were besieging Nuremgard itself and the famous duel happened on the day they dismantled the wards around the fortress prison.

simianpower -5 points · Nov 2022 · :ravenclaw_author:

Why would they bother? Until he affects them personally, they wouldn't care. Dumbledore didn't care that muggleborn don't get good jobs in the Wizarding World and can't go back to the muggle world. Because it doesn't affect him. Grindlewald affected him because they were so closely entangled in their youth. Flamel was over 600 years old, yet he didn't get involved, again because why the hell would he care? He didn't get involved with Voldemort either. Nor did any other great wizards. Wizards are mostly self-sufficient since their magic provides most of what they need. That makes them somewhat selfish. As long as there are muggles to acquire food from, they don't really need much. So unless there's something on the line for them, why would they care what happens to others? Sure, they'll have opinions and yell loudly, but to actually do something, even if they could? Not likely.

NaoSouONight 10 points · Nov 2022

Exposing magic to the world doesn't personally affects them?

Also, what

Dumbledore didn't care that muggleborn don't get good jobs in the Wizarding World and can't go back to the muggle world. Because it doesn't affect him.

What is he supposed to do about it? He runs the school and as far as we know, his every other office is symbolic. We never see him wielding any kind of political power in canon, there is no reason to assume that he would be able to do what you are suggesting.

Hell, he had so little political power that he could barely keep his seat in the school and when Harry's trial happened, he was almost entirely helpless against all the bureacracy they threw his way.

I don't want to turn this into some kind of Dumbledore discussion because it isn't the topic of the thread, but the man had more prestige than actual power.

ORigel2 0 points · Nov 2022

My headcanon is that the Chief Warlock is merely the tiebreaking vote in the Wizengamot. The Supreme Mugawump position is also ceremonial. The ICW could have crushed the Death Eaters at any time but didn't really care as they saw it to be Britain's problem, and thought Voldemort wasn't a serious threat to the Statue of Secrecy or in a position to invade the continent with a small army of Aurors, Death Eaters, and conscripts for at least a generation.

Daemon-Blackbrier 7 points · Nov 2022 · TheLordOfLightning

Did you not even read the post? Voldemort wasn't seen as a global threat(yet), this is true. But Grindelwald most certainly was and as OP said, wasn't even close to being stopped until Dumbledore stepped up to do it.

While the first and second wizarding wars certainly are more reminiscent of the American Civil wars, the global wizarding war in the 1930's and 1940's is not. The ICW(basically the UN) was directly involved in the war against Grindelwald and I have no doubt that wizards and witches from around the world would be a part of it.

If there were anyone strong enough to stop him, I'm sure the ICW would get them to try. But as he wasn't, we can only assume that A. There aren't any. B. They failed. Or C. They didn't want to try.

ORigel2 -6 points · Nov 2022

Voldemort was a terrorist leader who managed to topple a very weak and incompetent government. He was not going to be ready to successfully invade the continent for at least a generation. If he tried, his forces would have been decimated and if he tried to bolster them himself, he would have been surrounded and forced to flee or be reduced to a wraith. Voldemort is just one wizard, no matter how powerful, and not a global threat without a massive army...which he doesn't have.

Daemon-Blackbrier 6 points · Nov 2022 · TheLordOfLightning

I think the so-called weakness and incompetence of the British ministry are exaggerated and also only relevant for the years Fudge was the minister. We've no indication about the competence of the previous administrations and Rufus Scrimgeour seemed to be doing alright(but not great) for the year he had.

And if Voldemort did succeed... well he's Immortal, he can wait for a generation or two to indoctrinate and train up an army.

ORigel2 2 points · Nov 2022

Rufus Scrimgeour was an awful Minister who couldn't capture any important enemy. It wasn't his fault, really-- I put the blame on Fudge's denialism and the Auror department being underfunded and most of the Aurors not being able to hold their own in real fights (because of decades of the DADA curse, and them being little more than police officers).

The previous Ministry was unable to defeat the Death Eaters, either-- they didn't have the necessary population to raise an army so the poor Aurors were overwhelmed much of the time by frequent terrorist attacks. After eleven years, the Ministry was probably mere months away from falling.

The international community likely blamed Britain for creating the societal conditions for Voldemort's movement to gain traction before it turned violent. But mostly they didn't care. The public was reading the newspapers covering Death Eater attacks, their governments condemned Voldemort and the Death Eaters. But the magical governments knew sending some of their people to die on British soil would be political suicide.

ORigel2 2 points · Nov 2022

Voldemort can't raise up a substantial army because the population of Wizarding Britain is small (especially after a war and crushing the inevitable rebel insurgency after taking over) and most of the population sucks at combat because of the DADA curse he had placed.

And when he finally raised up an army and launched an invasion, other countries would have mobilized a coalition force that likely would have dwarfed his forces. If Voldemort eventually succeeds in taking over Europe...well, it'd be so far in the future that it will be Someone Else's Problem.

Unless Voldemort has support around the globe and almost independent Death Eater movements form in a number of countries, but Voldemort wasn't good at PR after he made too many Horcruxes.

It really doesn't matter that Voldemort is immortal because 1) he is just one insane man, and 2) no one knew for sure that he was immortal-- for a year they probably believed Fudge's propaganda that Dumbledore was senile and Harry was an attention-seeking liar because the Killing Curse is lethal. After he was confirmed to be alive? They could only suspect he was immortal. Initially, even Dumbledore probably thought Tom was immortal not because he had proof but because of the prophecy and because he knew Tom's worst fear was death.

Daemon-Blackbrier 2 points · Nov 2022 · TheLordOfLightning

We don't know the population of wizards in the world, we can speculate based on how many confined students go to Hogwarts, but we simply don't know how much that reflects on the population as a whole. There are simply to many inconsistencies regarding population to judge it properly. And as I said, he has time to wait for the population to built up and he can presumably get rid of the curse he place on the position of DADA Professor and put a suitably competent dark wizard in the position.

Voldemort is not insane. A psychopath or Sociopath? Probably. Insane? Maybe a bit towards the end, but before his Horcruxes began to be destroyed regularly he was fine and probably only seemed insane because he began to panick about Harry and Co. knowing about his Horcruxes.

What does people knowing about him being immortal have to do anything? He simply is, bar anyone destroying whats left of his Horcruxes, which I'm sure he would hid a bit better now.

He would rule Britain for as long as he needed to and any communication between Britain and the ICW would cease. The ICW would wait, unwilling to start a war for an already fallen country, and then wait some more, then after 50 or a 100 years he would attack with an entire country's worth of trained wizards and witches he'd been cultivating while every other country sat on there behinds.

Say a wizard does get lucky and kills his body. He'd be back within a week most likely, a month at most. Say someone gets lucky again, he'll simply come back. There are 206 bones in the human body, he's used 1 of his father's. Blood of the enemy is plentiful as is the flesh of his servants.

Voldemort has something that is absolutely essential to achieving ones goals, time. And he has as much as he wants. His goals will happen eventually, given enough time.

ORigel2 2 points · Nov 2022

The Union and Confederacy were each states with their own territories, so your analogy doesn't work. The Death Eaters were terrorists/insurgents who tried to take over the government of a small society, opposed by Aurors (police) and vigilantes (the Order) because the British Wizarding population isn't large enough for there to be armies.

GentleFoxes 1 points · Nov 2022

If we take a side step into Meta theory I think the reason for that is a power scaling that grew from a single children's book to a fully fledged universe. A lot of the books do a lot of redconning.

That leads to the issue that Dumbledore and Voldemort are called the greatest Wizards, but we rarely see them fight each other. Instead Voldemort dies in a duel with a school boy, and Dumbledore from a trap sprung by a school boy as well. Meanwhile the later movies and especially FBAWTFD have magic fights that look much more impressive than the earlier stuff.