Russia's excuse for war is "feeling threatened by NATO encirclement" - just laughable
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monica_b1998 [OP]
map source: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/115204.htm
Blackthorne75
Thank you very much - that webpage has just become my go-to for ammunition against those who are charmed by the narrative!
UranusisGolden
Nato laying the big facts in their myth busting article. Nice
usolodolo
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/852742
Here is another fantastic article. It really is about democracy spreading, not NATO. Ukraine was far from perfect - but their young democracy was becoming a threat to Russia power.
Keep in mind the context of Bashar Al Assad killing his own people who wanted democracy, Lukashenko who had mass protests in summer of 2020, and Xi who had the Hong Kong protests immediately pre-pandemic/Taiwan problem. These losers will do anything to keep power. It’s about democracy, not NATO.
BliksemseBende
You are SO RIGHT!!
Nerderis
Cannot agree more. If you check all videos of Mayors and even Zelenskyy circle - very few look older than 45, and some mayors of cities/towns looks like they are 30-35 year old, which I was happy about, as I know what liberal democrats did to my town in my motherland, in 2 years we became first council who's was running positive balance, and not debt, and couple more years later we have been granted resort status under same people managing council. Another generation who wants to see their town thriving rather than stuff their own pockets with "stolen" tax payers money
Marek_E20
It was never about NATO, that was just an excuse! Russia's corrupt authoritarian political system would not last with a fully democratic non-corrupt system next door!
Kaboonviper
Russia's actions is centered around Putin and his inner circle's ambitions. Its to resurrect a totalitarian pipe dreams of formulating the old USSR. Moreover, its to fortify themselves and cover up Putin's multitude of human rights violations, especially those perpatrated against his own people. Almost all opposition against the rutless Russian regime has been detained, poisoned or iliminateted. Who will want to give up power facing jail time for human rights violations.
[deleted]
I wouldn’t describe Ukraine as fully democratic or non-corrupt. Zelensky wasn’t exactly angelic in peacetime.
wtfwurst
You can say ”Fuck Zelensky” to his face without any consequences. In Russia it would land you in jail for 15 years.
[deleted]
It’s not a race, both can be authoritarian to different degrees. Criticizing zelensky is not praising Putin. Jesus you’re a real NPC.
wtfwurst
What the hell are you talking about?
When did i say criticizing Zelensky is praising Putin? And how exactly is he authoritarian?
[deleted]
You’re the one bringing up fucking Russia out of nowhere, pretending that I’m comparing the two.
wtfwurst
Ukraine is on good way, they are a friendly nation to my country, they are being invaded by our #1 threat. Idgaf about your tantrums, this country is a valuable ally, let’s support them instead of pushing them further down the authoritarian hole.
Now keep getting triggered and stalk my profile to try and harass me you fucking twink.
[deleted]
Lmfao did you enjoy your ban after dropping the f-word? You’re the most insane person I’ve seen on here yet, of course I’d read some stuff on your profile!
greenduck4
I guess these things don't happen overnight. Ukraine was at least on a right path.
[deleted]
https://euobserver.com/opinion/152478
No it wasn’t, zelensky was going more authoritarian before this war. You have the memory of a goldfish.
greenduck4
I wasn't talking about only the last few years. Ukraine has been in war since 2014. You can't really be fully democratic during war time, because the opponent forces would use it against you to defeat you or at least weaken you. This is actually what Russia does by subversion. Also the "Ukraine is corrupt shithole" is actually a russian narrative which they are using to discredit Ukraine in the eyes of the world. It's really hard to take steps and become a democratic and liberal country if you are under attack at the same time by the very same country which accuses you of not taking the steps fast enough.
I'm talking about Ukraine in general has been moving from being corrupt post-soviet state towards actually getting themself together, removing russian puppets and moving closer to EU integration since 2004 orange revolution.Yes it takes time, but they were at least moving in the right direction (including Maidan, which was a part of removing corruption). Russia of course has no interest in seeing Ukraine being "fixed" - they have power over the corrupt side of the weak Ukraine, but they would have less power over strong Ukraine that manages to get on their feet.
Perlentaucher
I am not too familiar with Zelensky and was just interested in Ukraine with start of the war, therefore I do not know too much about him, only his predecessor Poroshenko. What did Zelensky do in peacetimes?
[deleted]
https://euobserver.com/opinion/152478
Aswell as jailing his opponent, the previous president of Ukraine. Don’t be ignorant, google is there for you. He’s also using the war as an excuse to ban entire opposition parties.
Arylcyclosexy
Google is not there for you when you've got to decide which news sites are trustworthy.
As Hunter S. Thompson once said, there's no such thing as objective journalism. So you gotta be really careful where to get your info because everything has an angle.
[deleted]
Are you defending authoritarianism?
Arylcyclosexy
No. Are you?
How the fuck did you even come to that conclusion from my message? Wouldn't authoritarian media be even more biased?
Most top media sources and their journalists have such a good list of contacts that they quickly start fearing they lose them by writing something that upsets them. When it comes to important politicians, for example, the biggest media sites are avoiding criticism towards the people they're close with and avoid printing certain things because then they lose their trust with the said politician and their circles.
e. Apparently I'm being downvoted by a bunch of sheeps.
cm011
You mean Victor Medvedchuk, the guy who has close ties to Putin, who is god father to his daughter, who has been sanctioned by the US in 2014 after Russia invaded Crimea, and who Putin planned to install in Zelensky’s place had his invasion gone according to plan?
That guy?
He got put under house arrest for treason, and it sounds like there was a pretty damn good reason for it.
J0hnnyTyrant
I've always been mildly amused by Putins 'Ukraine should be neutral to avoid border with NATO' bullshit. Right before invading and trying to take the country, effectively delivering himself the NATO border he never wanted just in a different place. Its bollocks of course, like everything the Russians say.
Popxorcist
So by taking Ukraine the shared border would be even longer.
golpedeserpiente
South-western Ukraine is locked by the Carpathian mountains, a natural barrier. So land invasions to Russia can only be driven through The Central European plain and the Bessarabia gap.
SlutBuster
Obviously the "encirclement" claim is bullshit, but a population density map shows that the majority of Russians are pretty close to NATO members.
PlebsicleMcgee
It's almost like you don't need a direct border with a nation to be affected by them
[deleted]
That’s not NATOs fault, most of the farmable land is where you see the population centers.
If Russia feels threatened because Ukraine has more food than them, that’s no reason to invade Ukraine, unless you wants to steal the land and steal the food
ThanksToDenial
And natural gas. There are several natural gas fields there. And industrial centers. Don't forget, most of the Soviet era military vehicles were made originally in Ukraine. Hell, the Cruiser Moskva that just sank, was originally made in Ukraine. They have some of biggest steel mills in europe. Also, energy. They have the biggest nuclear powerplant in Europe. And a couple more on top.
And yes, they have a good size farming industry too. They export a decent amount of grain to Europe.
BigSlothFox
Exactly this. First of all, yes the NATO argument is bullshit. But the map shown by OP is also misleading. Russia is a huge country, but it’s population is not spread evenly. Most of Russian citizens lives in the countries west close to the border. Also the argument that if russia expands to the west it will be even closer to nato is not accurate. The goal is to control the states to it’s western border so they act as a buffer between Europe and Russians heart land. As the Soviet Union didn’t care about its satellite states and just oppressed them in order to have this buffer so will Russia.
peterrzepka
Maybe if Russia stopped threatening other nations or siding with nations and leaders abusing human rights, it would feel less threatened all the time. Nobody wants to invade Russia, no one gives a f*k so stop being a nation that constantly feels like everyone is just out to get you. No one is. But Russian culture n pride seems to come from overcoming these issues and conflicts so it is going to be be difficult to switch the mentality of warped Russian minds to find something else to be proud of.
antihawk_namor
A typical scheme for holding power is to find an enemy from outside.
Rare-Banana5916
Letting a hostile party near the border is not very good. But it's not just about NATO
[deleted]
Guess NATO exudes big dick energy?
ShardOfLuck
My understanding is that most of Russian population and industry is on the European side.
happy_dumpster
I don't know... I talked to my Russian friend the other day and she's been convinced Ukraine was going to attack Russia if they didn't start the war.
She's pretty level headed most of the time so that's makes me worry about how effective the lies are in country.
TRuMp_iZ_A_GhEY
We should get China and Mongolia to join NATO! That would be funny!
Major_Boot2778
This picture is inaccurate. At the moment, they've actually increased their border with us. Hopefully not for long, but it's worth noting that their answer to being too close to us is to get closer to us lol
monica_b1998 [OP]
Are you talking about Sweden and Finland? if so, technically they're not in NATO yet, so the map is still accurate...
Major_Boot2778
No I'm talking about Ukraine, and it's just hyperbole to shit on Russia. Just meant for a (dark) laugh.
When Sweden and Finland join, the "hopefully not for long," doesn't apply anymore. We want those guys to stay with us :)
monica_b1998 [OP]
combuchan
Do not underestimate the paranoid "security concerns" of a country being run by a corrupt ex-KGB kleptocracy.
Europe's geography pretty much guarantees that the relatively flat lands of Ukraine are the surest route for the hypothetical evil NATO aggressor to move in and invade.
Most people in the West can't comprehend this but for the mob-run insane asylum/gas station masquerading as a country that is Russia, it can't be any more serious.
DrBucket
[deleted]
Show what the border would of been with Ukraine in NATO ... Now do I think that is a front cus Russia wants to make the black sea a Russian lake cus the gas and oil they found there (can't be the only Petro economy in Europe if other countries have access to oil and gas lol
Cultural-Pie-688
Maybe we should feel sorry for Putin and friends...they dont know what a circle looks like 😶
wise-farmer-b
Let's draw a circle on a piece of paper around a map of Russia and send it to Mr. Putin. so that He can figure it out. Then we can send him a paper sack with instructions to hand it to whoever his chief of staff of the army is this week; with the following: "Put your army in this bag and see if they can manage to fight their way out of it to get home."
marsz_godzilli
If it gives Królewiec/Köningsberg back to Poland, it will be even less encircled
M4sterDis4ster
North border is wrong.
Finland and Sweden are not in NATO? At least not yet.
Sayasam
Technically... NATO is on both sides.
[deleted]
TomMorvRiddle
huilvcghvjl
They are pretty much surrounded by nato if you look at a map. Still no reason to invade Ukraine
BliksemseBende
I call this the best post since the war. Thank you all for the contribution. And about Putin: pathetic little man frightened about democracy because he chose for the dark side by stealing from his own people. Sad sick fuck!
ExternalGovernment39
Why are Russians pathological liars? It's pathetic.
CalibanSpecial
Opposite of what they are saying is the truth.
They employ basic childish ‘tactics’. Always accuse the enemy of doing something that you are doing.
Russian habitual lying, their mass murdering, mass raping army revealed to the world.
This ain’t the 20th century where war crimes can be hidden, information is slow, if it at all arrives.
Pot_McSmokey
Of course they would feel threatened. Russia is trying to stomp all over their smaller neighbors and it’ll be a lot harder if they’re protected by NATO.
FlamingoWooden3289
rus is such a cryer…
[deleted]
Picture worth a thousand words.
CalibanSpecial
Russia = we never ever stop lying.
These clowns can’t even tell the truth about what happened to their flagship Moskva. 😂
Only morons would believe anything Russia/Kremlin is saying.
Evil_Mini_Cake
Russia is like toxic white male masculinity incarnate.
Huge_Introduction_50
Sustructu
Not to take Russia's side, but showing this map without any context doesn't show the entire picture. Nearly all the Russian cities, its population and industrial centers are located in the west. Siberia is practically a snow desert. The fact that it has a lot of borders in Asia and owns a lot of land mass doesn't mean it's population is not threatened by NATO. With Ukraine joining and Turkey on the waitinglist (and now possibly Finland and Sweden as well) it's a fact that the majority of the Russian populace, government and industry are threatened by NATO.
iEatPalpatineAss
They're all joining (or trying to) because Russia keeps pushing them around until they feel the need to join
Nonamanadus
Here is the absolute truth: NO NATO COUNTRY GIVES A FUCK ABOUT INVADING RUSSIA .......
The west cares about money, people would not tolerate their governments instigating a costly and destructive war especially in their own neighborhood. Civilians want new phones, cars, clothing and eating out. You think national mobilization would be popular or that people would relish being taken away from their comfortable lives?
No country in Europe (except for Russia) is interested in Empire building. The Europeans were more than content on buying Russian energy which would have made the country wealthy but Putin ruined that with the sanctions and his looting of government coffers.
Putin could have finished on a high note in the history books but his greed and ego have put his accomplishments on the back page right beside all the failed leaders that came before him
OlderGuyWatching
It's interesting that Ruzzia has a failed leader: Pootin, and the USA also has one by the name of Biden.
d1ndeed
Except of course theyre in spots that are of incredible geographic importance, both economically and militarily.
SO honestly the criticisms about NATO are genuine, just certainly not an excuse for war.
iEatPalpatineAss
Then why did Russia push Ukraine towards NATO? They used to be BFFs
mikula123
Are we pretending that the western-backed coup in Ukraine in 2014 never happened?
Nivistia
Fuck off with your bullshit, Yanukovych was a Kremlin puppet like Lukashenka & used his power to fuck the Ukrainians people wish to join the EU & its sovereignty.
That pos is today in the Russian government, the ministers who served with him are all supportive of Russia & Kiva went as far as urging Putin to nuke his country.
Those human trashes have nothing to call themselves Ukrainians, those are just traitors who sold & fucked Ukraine, the Ukrainian people & are responsible for this war that's been going on for 8 years.
But it's a waste of time to argue with a guy with an IQ lower than a dog shit who blame NATO for this war.
d1ndeed
Yea dunno if you've realised but that WASNT their intention. That is a common occurrence not only in life but also history. It's called unintended consequences, yes? Do I really need to explain this any further?
Because I find it quite amazing how many people follow this type of rhetoric but never actually THINK about the words theyre saying and what they actually mean.
VhaztheBunny
I dont really care why Russia did it I just wish Zelensky would stop begging other countries to get involved.
Primary-Length-3141
[deleted]
[deleted]
Ultimo_Ninja
Ask Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, Syria, and Libya how peaceful NATO is.
arbuzno777
So yeah, most rus population would live next to nato if Ukraine, Finland joins nato. That's why Putin asked nato several times to withdraw its plans to join Ukraine. However nato is too blood hungry to accept the proposal
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