slopfront
Reddit, read-only. No JavaScript. No cookies. No tracking.
preferences
Saved in links, not cookies.

[Mistborn Era 2] Sazed's real Intent

104 points · submitted Dec 2017 by u/Empty-Mind · [Series] · archived

So, I'm currently rereading the first Mistborn trilogy and I noticed something in one of the epigraphs. At the start of Chapter 8 of Final Empire, part of the Terris prophecy about the Hero of Ages says that "His name shall be Discord".

Now as we know, these prophecies actually refer to Sazed. I wonder if, despite his chosen moniker, his actual intent is Discord. We can see, and have his personal testimony, how conflicted his powers are. The world he created is full of strife and discord. His godmetal is incredibly reactive and dangerous. Yes, the Basin is a paradise, but it suffers greatly from income inequality and Elendel domination. The Roughs are aptly named. And then there are those poor Southerners who had to deal with an ice age with no help from Sazed.

It can even be seen in the religions of Scadrial. Many worship Kelsier, some Harmony, some Trell, and some still worship the Lord Ruler. So many opportunities for conflict to arise.

Thoughts?

70 comments · 98% upvoted · other discussions

comments

Read-only. Use the arrows to collapse threads.

chowder-san 40 points · Dec 2017

Relevant

Empty-Mind [OP] 22 points · Dec 2017

So I guess the question then is do we believe Sazed is actually balancing the opposition, or just thinks he is.

chowder-san 26 points · Dec 2017

Not necessarily. The prophecy does not specify when Discord is supposed to appear. If I remember correctly At the end of Bands of Mourning a creature possibly Roshar/Oathbringer spoilers with red eyes appear and there are signs of Odium approaching Sazed. There is a possibility that Sazed, forced by circumstances, will take actions that will earn him the title of Discord. There are also other options. In Shadows of Self we were presented a conflict involving kandra, emissaries of Sazed so to speak. Odium might make use of this situation so people blame Sazed for the course of things. Just like Odium tried to manipulate Roshar, Oathbringer he might attempt to present himself as graceful savior, convincing that the Harmony is in fact Discord that undermines people's efforts

Empty-Mind [OP] 19 points · Dec 2017

I don't know that it was a Parahendi though. I don't have a link at the moment, but a WoB has said that red is simply a sign of a Shard's native magic being corrupted. So that could have simply been a person corrupted/possessed by Trell.

Also, I believe that Mistborn era 2 takes place after Stormlight chronologically. So that would mean Odium needs to survive Stormlight to affect Scadrial. Based on the Set's focus on individual action and personal power and freedom, it seems much more likely that Autonomy is involved. We know that Bavadin has expressed concern about multishard worlds. It would make sense for her to have influence on Scadrial then.

chowder-san 11 points · Dec 2017

I don't know that it was a Parahendi though.

For me it's the way it talks - it doesn't seem to be concerned about dying along with mister Suit as if it could simply inhabit another vessel - just like Odium's Fused.

As for Autonomy or Odium: why not both

Empty-Mind [OP] 3 points · Dec 2017

I guess we'll find out one way or the other eventually. I wonder if Bavadin isn't the big bad, with Odium as more of a stooge/lieutenant.

PaintItPurple 2 points · Dec 2017

I imagine that if she were the big bad, Brandon would RAFO a lot more Bavadin questions.

Empty-Mind [OP] 6 points · Dec 2017

But wouldn't that in itself be a clue that she's significant? We really don't know enough about Bavadin, other than that she's helped Odium in the past. But, she is spread all over the Cosmere, putting her in a uniquely powerful position as a mastermind. After all, Trell does have a thousand eyes.

To me at least, one of the best ways to remain independent is to let someone else (eg Odium) fight your battles for you.

ikkonoishi 1 points · Dec 2017

Well I get the feeling that Autonomy teams up with anyone who can stand on their own.

[deleted] 8 points · Dec 2017

Here is the WoB about red being the color of one Shard corrupting another's power.

Empty-Mind [OP] 4 points · Dec 2017

Thanks! I'm on mobile at the moment and all my WoB links are on my computer.

[deleted] 6 points · Dec 2017

No problem. I love where this post is going conversation-wise and wanted to add however I could.

Wyvernwalker 6 points · Dec 2017

Mistborn arc 2 is between books 5-6 of stormlight archives, so odium could affect them still. Cuz its most likely he will survive halfway through the archives at least

Empty-Mind [OP] 5 points · Dec 2017

Huh, for some reason I thought it took place after. I must be thinking of Era 3. On the other hand, will Odium have the kind of free time to mess around on Scadrial while a war's going on on Roshar. We also don't know the time scale involved in Shards travelling to different worlds.

Knutzorian 5 points · Dec 2017

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8340

FirstSelector [PENDING REVIEW] Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes.

It doesnt have to be Odium, but its probably another Shard.

Edit: I need to learn to scroll way more before i post, waay to late to the party. Sorry.

A_Shadow 4 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Harmony would theoretically have more Ruin than Preservation leading to an imbalance. Since Preservation gave man more of himself than Ruin leading to the whole eventual conflict between them.

Perhaps that imbalance would create Discord. But Sazed knew of that imbalance and I believe WoB was that Harmony did something with that extra Ruin.

Empty-Mind [OP] 9 points · Dec 2017

Would the atium still exist? Sazed could have converted the extra to atium and then stored it somewhere safe. Alternatively, he Ruined plenty for the Southern peoples. Which might explain why he allowed Kelsier to use hemalurgy to revive: someone had to teach them to Survive.

I'm not sure that it would matter if the powers were balanced though. It might make things easier, but they are still fundamentally opposed powers. That makes it hard to wield them in concert. I imagine it could also spiral very quickly if Sazed loses control. Hard to reign it back in without a counterbalance. We could see him lose control of one of the Shards and 'reduce' down to Ruin and Preservation again. Or maybe we just haven't chronologically hit Discord yet and that part of the prophecy is simply yet to come.

[deleted] 6 points · Dec 2017

[deleted]

Empty-Mind [OP] 7 points · Dec 2017

Gives a pretty literal meaning to the Cold War Brandon said would be Era 3.

KeenBlade 1 points · Dec 2017

I'm already starting to wonder what Invested WMD's would be like. Mass aluminum poisoning to eliminate enemy allomancy? Maybe the Mistborn serial killer will be created as part of a supersoldier program?

Empty-Mind [OP] 9 points · Dec 2017

Massive chromium bubble so they can't respond, followed by a big steel push (or an iron pull) to destroy all their metallic infrastructure. Pull a Kingsmen and have Rioters make a country rip itself apart. Allomantic brave new world where Soothers keep the occupied population passive. Whichever feruchemical storage let you store strength plus pewter (or compounding) would create Marvel's juggernaut. All the different ways Misting infiltrators could mess up a military installation. Jets big enough to hold a speedbubble using it to fly super super sonic. Could you create allomancy seeking missiles with Copper? Who needs computers when you can speed your thoughts and have a coppermind. The possibilities are endless. Amd thats without hemalurgy in the mix!

KeenBlade 6 points · Dec 2017

Era 3 is going to be amazing.

Empty-Mind [OP] 3 points · Dec 2017

I'm also pretty psyched for the cyberpunk era 4. Soothing and Rioting would fit right in. Feruchemical superhackers, Allomancer spies destroying computers with steel and iron. Depending on how tech progress, Scadrial seems to have to most potential to game the system. Aluminum weapons untouchable by other magic and tech development will make aluminum cheap and plentiful. Allomantic super speed via bendalloy. Hemalurgic experimentation produces something like a xenomorph, with gold compounding so it never dies of course. Power armor lifted by Thugs, propelled by Steel. Come to think of it, you could probably use Steel/Iron to make a rail gun.

load 0 more replies →

The_Vikachu 3 points · Dec 2017

WoB is that Atium can't be created or regenerated because Ati no longer exists. You can still use existing Atium like Marsh is doing, but I don't think Sazed can make any more.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e5874

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e6242

Empty-Mind [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017

Fair enough. Point does stand that the Ruin could have effectively been shunted somewhere he deemed it safe.

The_Vikachu 5 points · Dec 2017

That actually brings me to a theory I have:

There's a WoB that says Sazed doesn't have Venture's atium and another WoB that people in House Venture were involved in the interplanetary trade of atium. I think Felt and pals basically stole a Venture's stash of atium and either already sold it or are still sitting on it until the price of the non-renewable resource gets even higher.

MythSteak 1 points · Dec 2017

, but they are still fundamentally opposed powers.

Im not so sure that they are exact opposites. There has been some reddit-research indicates that the system might be a little bit more complicated than that.

So to go on with your original premise, I do think it makes sense that "harmony" could also be "discord" based on the powers he picked up. After all, Ruin and preservation: they could be in 'balance' against each other, but what if they were directed? What if he managed to apply preservation there and ruin here?

Sazed could have converted the extra to atium and then stored it somewhere safe.

and here I am trying to imagine what kind of doomsday devices a shard could make out of some metallic divine-essence-of-Ruin. Harmony might want to keep the spare power safe, but Discord would have that shit on the march

Empty-Mind [OP] 1 points · Dec 2017

Maybe not opposite numerologically, but they seem more diametrically opposed than any of the other Shards we know of. That would make them hard to use.

Wouldn't essence of Ruin end up as something like antimatter? Something that destroys everything it touches. Sounds a lot like Nightblood honestly, although obviously the timelines mean that's not the case.

MythSteak 2 points · Dec 2017

Wouldn't essence of Ruin end up as something like antimatter?

The previous incarnation was Atium, so no. According to that reddit research, ruin is "outward-physical-negating" the god metal atium doesnt affect itself, it pushes outwards to things around it (an allomancer burning atium can easily kill others)

Im going back to your point about about Harmony being "out of balance" if I was harmony, and I had an excess of invested ruin, I would put that magical might in a vessel close to my control and proceed to ruin some shit, you know?

Empty-Mind [OP] 1 points · Dec 2017

So maybe a singularity type deal. Or the ole dnd sphere of anhilation. Which, if you could control or aim it, is the kind of thing you coukd just drop on an enemy's, say Trell's for example, planet an Ruin it.

Madoushi90 28 points · Dec 2017

Those epigraphs are from Alendi's logbook, which was on paper. Regardless of whether Ruin tampered with logbook itself or not, Alendi was writing about the prophecies that he was hearing from those around him, which certainly were tampered with.

I don't believe there is any reliable record of the original, unaltered prophecies. The oldest available are the recollections of the Kandra first generation, who were Alendi's and Rashek's contemporaries. In theory, Sazed himself might be able to reconstruct the original prophecies, since, as Vin discovered, holding a shard also gives you the knowledge of how it was used in the past.

IMO that line was either directly manipulated by Ruin, or was a simple observation people made about Alendi's actions, which Ruin then elevated to "prophecy".

(Edit: spelling)

Empty-Mind [OP] 15 points · Dec 2017

On the other hand, epigraphs often seem like one of Brandon's ways to give us clues and hints. Particularly given the capitalization, I believe that Ruin wouldn't have had a reason to change that line. After all, Ruin's alterations all made people MORE inclined to trust and believe the hero. He wanted someone heroic to release him. Why would he encourage people to stop that process?

Madoushi90 10 points · Dec 2017

The entire statement is "His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it," which smacks of populism. Perhaps he was trying incite populist uprisings against the establishment and in support of Alendi, the arriving conqueror. While it might only tangentially serve his immediate goal of being released, it would serve his overall intent of sowing destruction.

Thanks for bringing up a great discussion point, BTW. I don't recall ever scrutinizing a single sentence this much.

Empty-Mind [OP] 5 points · Dec 2017

I'm not there in my reread, but aren't most of Ruin's alterations to make the prophecy seem closer to whoever seems in a position to release him? So it switches to female for Vin, for example. I don't think Ruin would alter more than he had to. The more alterations, the more likely someone is to notice them, and that power is much stronger if its not observed. The Discord line is vague and prophesy-ish enough that it wouldn't need to be altered. After all, anyone in the position to wield the Well probably has opponents.

Isn't the first Mistborn trilogy the story of a populist uprising? I'd say he got that uprising he wanted.

As far as loving him for it, Harmony is revered as a god. He is loved and worshiped for what he did to save Scadrial, taking up the two opposing powers: ascending to be Discord. They just use Sazed's chosen name over his (hypothetical) true name. The same way Odium might call himself Passion.

Madoushi90 2 points · Dec 2017

It's hard to say what Ruin was up to during Final Empire beyond influencing Vin. It's been quite some time since my last reread, but I thought that basically as soon as the Lord Ruler was dead, the ashmounts began to erupt more. During WoA, they were primarily focused on the mists, but I thought they were already having trouble with ash buildup in the canals. Maybe I'm just getting that confused with early HoA. If that's the case though, then Ruin was taking actions unrelated to being released.

For the line to be genuine, then that would imply that the author (presumably Leras) knew beforehand that the combination of Ruin and Preservation was Discord, not Harmony. I'll admit this is entirely possible. He was after all, a member of the group that shattered Adonalsium, about whom they presumably knew a great deal. There's ultimately no way to know for certain if it's genuine, given the lack of reliable, independent sources. There's also no indication that Preservation's plan extended beyond the defeat of Ruin.

Assuming the WoB linked above is referring to this statement, I would guess that the original line did indeed say that the hero would become Discord, but the rest is free for Ruin to use. Remember that he'd been operating over millennia, so completely changing sentences, if he's patient, is quite easy. In WoA, it was on the scale of weeks or months (even days near the end, e.g. "Holy First Witness") so he had to be very subtle.

That WoB also suggests that the only difference between Harmony and Discord is the will of the vessel. We have seen that the intent of the shard eventually overwhelms the will of the vessel, but we don't have any reference for how long that takes. Since I don't think Sazed is a liar, at the end of HoA, he's definitely Harmony, but by the time of Alloy, he's struggling to keep the powers from clashing. By the next era, assuming he's not killed before then, he may fully become Discord and the original Sazed will be gone.

Empty-Mind [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017

The ashmounts are also erupting more at the very start of Final Empire. There are several mentions of how active they're being. I interpret that as them simply growing more active as the 1000 year cycle approaches and Ruin's prison weakens.

We don't know how much Ruin's influence was restrained by his imprisonment. Could he as easily alter things before the cycle's end appriached? I suspect that original line should be fine though as its came from Terris copperminds. He'd have a slim window to alter them in the transition, and Shards aren't omniscient or omnipresent. He also had no reason to alter them until he wanted to manipulate Vin. Why risk exposure trying to change things around scholars with a perfect memory mechanism.

Unrelated, do you know if there's a WoB on if Ruin could alter computer files? They're not exactly written, but the storage is in/on metallic compounds.

I agree that Sazed wouldn't lie on purpose, but he could simply have wrong when he believed himself able to maintain the balance.

Silver_Swift 1 points · Dec 2017 · Bonded a Caffeinespren

Ruin could change memories stored in metalminds, couldn't he? It's just things etched in metal that are immune.

I agree that it is unlikely that he would (because I agree he doesn't have much reason to), but he could if he wanted to.

Empty-Mind [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017

I didn't think he could change metalminds since they were stored memories. But he could change the text that they wrote down to re-memorize. But why risk exposure when you have to wait for the Well to be primed anyway?

treegrass 1 points · Dec 2017

I'm pretty sure he could change memories in metalminds. It's been a while since I read mistborn, but if I recall correctly, that was a major reason everyone was confused the first time around. Ruin was changing the metalminds, but the one Terrisman remembered exactly the prophecy without metalminds, just cus he had a phenomenal memory, and that's why he couldn't convince anyone that the Hero of Ages stuff was all wrong

Empty-Mind [OP] 1 points · Dec 2017

Huh. Like I said, I thought he just changed it when the wrote it out since they would just memorize whatever they wrote. Since they'd write it out when recopying it for others, he'd change it then. It would only need to happen once per person, because they all trusted their copperminds. That's why the one Terris dude noticed, his personal memory was different than the archive.

So when they refilled their copperminds it was a corrupted file as it were. Because the copperminds should be Identified. I don't think that the Shards can mess with that sort of thing. I mean if Ruin can change memories in a coppermind wouldn't he also be able to change memories out of a coppermind.

load 0 more replies →

Ozzyborne 14 points · Dec 2017

Totally missed that line of prophecy. Great theory!

HalcyonKnights 8 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

I was wondering about this recently while pondering the Intents. It always seemed like "Harmony" was not the only outcome of a Union of Opposites. The union between Preserve What Is and Destroy What Is could find a relatively benign and notably passive Harmony; or it could manifest in a far more Active promotion of that Cycle, aka Discord.

Phylanara 5 points · Dec 2017

How was this prophecy stored? is there a chance Ruin altered it to deter people from helping Sazed ?

Or is it foreshadowing for making Sazed the hidden antagonist for the cosmere once Odium falls?

Empty-Mind [OP] 6 points · Dec 2017

This was The Lord Ruler's journal I believe. I recall this being the version without Ruin's alterations.

Silver_Swift 2 points · Dec 2017 · Bonded a Caffeinespren

Ruin had no reason to deter people from helping Sazed pre-ascension (he wanted people to trust the hero of ages) and post-ascension Ruin doesn't exist anymore.

bodneyp 3 points · Dec 2017

Where did we learn about his god metal? I don't remember reading that anywhere.

[deleted] 14 points · Dec 2017

Sazed's god metal show up in The Bands of Mourning. The ettmetal that powers the Southern Scadrial's flying machines is Harmonium.

HalcyonKnights 7 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

I wonder if, despite his chosen moniker, his actual intent is Discord.

Bands of Morning, it's the key to the Southern Allomantic tech. Called Harmonium and described in WoB as a sort of super-cesium, an alkali metal. Which among other things makes it somewhat problematic to try to eat for Allomancy (Alkali metal + moisture = BOOOOOOM)

MythSteak 3 points · Dec 2017

Which among other things makes it somewhat problematic to try to eat for Allomancy

You know that people in that world are going to get up to some crazy shit to try to burn it. Just imagine the possibilities with a pewter burner being duralimin pushed getting some harmonium injected somewhere (maybe with a gun?)

FoggyDonkey 2 points · Jan 2018

Or maybe coat it in oil, eat it, and burn it moment it makes contact with your body.

Empty-Mind [OP] 3 points · Dec 2017

Its the ettmetal that explodes in water.

accidentlyaword 4 points · Dec 2017

I didn't know the exact definition of Discord. So I looked it up. Check out the second definition.

dis·cord

ˈdiskôrd/

noun

1.

disagreement between people.

"a prosperous family who showed no signs of discord"

synonyms:strife, conflict, friction, hostility, antagonism, antipathy, enmity, bad feeling, ill feeling, bad blood, argument, quarreling, squabbling, bickering, wrangling, feuding, contention, disagreement, dissension, dispute, difference of opinion, disunity, division, opposition;

infighting

"stress resulting from family discord"

2.

MUSIC

lack of harmony between notes sounding together.

"the music faded in discord"

synonyms:dissonance, discordance, disharmony, cacophony

"the music faded in discord"

Empty-Mind [OP] 10 points · Dec 2017

Interesting that we have yet another musical note (hehe) in the Cosmere. There are Rhythms on Roshar, Perfect Pitch on Nalthis. I wonder if there's some sort of underlying Spiritual music going on.

PaintItPurple 9 points · Dec 2017

Also relevant is how allomancers and the Well of Ascension pulse (another kind of rhythm).

Empty-Mind [OP] 9 points · Dec 2017

As well as the Allomantic pulses Seekers feel.

I believe Brandon has said something about music having an underlying Cosmere significance. Its just striking how many places it pops up.

dunkster91 4 points · Dec 2017 · Worldhopper

I'll take 16 musics, please.

caldric 3 points · Dec 2017

The shards we know of could all be interpreted as something related to music. Perhaps Adonalsium was the perfect symphony, and Hoid just wants to hear it again.

AliasHandler 4 points · Dec 2017

This is very poetic. I don't think this is the way Brandon is going but it would make for quite the epic poem.

Hoid is basically Tenacious D in this universe, writing the song Tribute.

WhatRoughBeast73 1 points · Dec 2017

Interesting. Because that 2nd meaning fits him perfectly. While he IS Harmony, his Shards obviously have a considerable lack of harmony, therefor causing the discord. I like it! And it would be just like Sanderson to use a word that most people "know" what it means but actually use a less familiar definition of it. Lol!

iforgotmylogon 3 points · Dec 2017

I feel like this post title is a potential spoiler; should change Sazed to Shards

pl233 2 points · Dec 2017

Agreed, could also say Harmony

jmcgit 1 points · Dec 2017

I suppose it's a plausible spoiler if someone had read Stormlight but not Mistborn. Otherwise, intent could really mean anything.

iforgotmylogon 2 points · Dec 2017

It kind of implies Sazed is alive during Era 2. It doesn't necessarily mean that, but since he is...

Ser_Capelli 1 points · Dec 2017

Oath Bringer