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[All] A Theory on Shardic Intents

279 points · submitted Dec 2017 by u/HalcyonKnights · [All] · archived

I have been thinking about the Shardic Intents lately, and Ive been attempting to find some actual method to figuring out what the remaining Shards might be, particularly the fabled Shard that knows too much and just wants to Survive.

Separately, it's long bugged me that the Cosmere started off with 16 (an exponential series two number) but the Universal Structure is built on three Realms. This is just an irrational nagging feeling that tangled on my OCD more than anything significant. But I think I have found a way to reconcile the two. Brandon has said that he peppered larger clues in a lot of the early Cosmere works so that when he got to the final arcs there would be common themes and patterns that tie things together. Ive always though the whole 16 Shards/16 Allomantic Metals just such a thing. And if you look at the Metallic Arts, they are grouped according to the Three Realms PLUS Time, which appeases my OCD by harking to the classic Three Dimensions of Space Plus Time.

All that to say I think Ive figured out a Roadmap of the Shardic Intents based on the pattern of Allomantic Metals that could be useful to us.

  • There are four groups: Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual, and Temporal
  • Within each Group there is an axis of Positive vs Negative

  • Within each Group there is an axis of In vs Out (Internal/External, Inward/Outward, Endothermic/Exothermic, etc].

  • Thus each Intent can be expressed syllogistically (Mad-lib style) in the general form of:

    [insert Shard] Does/Doesn't want Themselves/Others to [Be in that Realm, or Change in Time]

Under this model, Preservation and Ruin are perfectly aligned (as well as opposed) because Ruin Doesn't want Anything to Exist while Preservation Doesnt want Anything to Change; They are both Outward Negative, but one is focused on the Physical presence while the other is focused on the Temporal. Filling out that set we have Odium Who doesnt want Anyone to Connect Spiritually, and Dominion who Doesnt want anyone to Challenge Order/Authority. Cultivation Wants Everyone Else to Improve Over Time, while Ambition wants Themselves to Improve Over Time. Devotion is a Dedication to ones Spiritual Connections with the Outside World, while Honor is about dedication in Internal Spirituality.

I think this offers a Roadmap to compare known Shards and attempt to fill in the Gaps of the unknown ones. My current guesses are:

  • The Inward Negative Temporal Shard is Conviction (Doesnt want Themselves to Change, as Compared to Preservation)
  • The Inward Positive Cognitive Shard is Enlightenment/Wisdom (Wants Themselves to Gain Cognitively, as compared to Endowment that wants to enhance others) This is my suspect for the Shard that Knows too much and just wants to Survive.
  • The Inward Negative Spiritual Shard is Solitude (Wants Themselves to have no Spritual Connections)

The Physical ones are tough, Ive come up with Paragon (Positive In), Ascetic (Negative In) and Creation (Positive Out) but none of those feel right.

EDIT: One thing I should also mention is that one part of my logic was that Shards whose Intents' are Temporal are the ones that are innately involved in Change and Temporal Progression and that those are the shards we can expect to have Shardic Future Sight.

EDIT (adding various guesses from comments, etc):

  • Physical Positive In: Hedonism, Pleasure, Survival (Darwinian "of the Fittest"), Experience

  • Physical Negative In: Masochism, Survival, Pain, Aesthetic, Ascetic

  • Physical Positive Out: Charity, Servitude, Compassion, Demiurge/World-Smith

Thoughts?

EDIT: WoB: "I've always been fascinated with, like, the blue and the red, right? The things that are opposite but to some cultures and not to others. Like, that was really, that was the Ruin and Preservation thing, right?"

EDIT Thanks to u/JamCliche for re-orienting the Shardmap to more directly correlate to the published Allomantic wheel! Updated Link: https://imgur.com/KR2E4oN

EDIT: Continuing the discussion HERE to delve into the definitions of each axis as they relate to the Shards.

[All] A Theory on Shardic Intents

144 comments · 97% upvoted · other discussions

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[deleted] 173 points · Dec 2017

[deleted]

HalcyonKnights [OP] 39 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Never said that... ;-)

B_Huij 8 points · Dec 2017 · :sa_era4: Roshar

Take my upvote.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 108 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

My god, I just realized this is me attempting to engage in philosophic Sudoku

Mysphyt 31 points · Dec 2017

But that to me fees 100% consistent with Sanderson's MO of "create a preposterously complex multivalent system-of-systems and explore the stories generated by its internal conflicts."

feather337 9 points · Dec 2017

Maybe I'm impossibly nerdy but to me it feels like the Standard Model in particle physics; so many parameters, so little time.

Lord_Emperor 8 points · Dec 2017

Please reach out to someone you trust before committing Sudoku.

B_Huij 51 points · Dec 2017 · :sa_era4: Roshar

A highly compelling theory in my book. I just don't see Brandon coming up with the 16 shards by randomly selecting character traits that he could personify. The idea that they all fit into a complex, but understandable and predictable pattern, makes perfect sense.

Not only that, but some of the Shards you have postulated seem really compelling. The reason we haven't seen Solitude is because the shardic intent is literally opposed to interacting with others in any spiritual way.

The reason we haven't seen Conviction is because interacting with others tends to lead to change in onesself.

The reason we haven't seen Enlightenment is the reason Brandon stated - knows too much and just wants to survive. Enlightenment might be key to this whole thing, perhaps he/she knows how to reform Adonalsium, and that's the last thing Odium and Autonomy would want, hence Enlightenment is high up on their "to kill" list.

Additional guesses for what could potentially be other shards:

Physical Positive In: Hedonism, Pleasure

Physical Negative In: Masochism, Survival, Pain

Physical Positive Out: Charity, Servitude, Compassion

HalcyonKnights [OP] 10 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

One thing I should also mention is that one part of my logic was that Shards whose Intents' are Temporal are the ones that are innately involved in Change and Temporal Progression and that those are the shards we can expect to have Shardic Future Sight.

Enlightenment might be key to this whole thing, perhaps he/she knows how to reform Adonalsium,

Ya, that occurred to me, in RvB terms they'd be RvB.

Ill start tracking the additional guesses in the OP. I could also see Survival being the Physical Positive In. Im trying to imagine what shard-worlds would look like under these, and I could see Physical Positive In spawning an Ultra-Darwinian "Survival of the Fittest" sort of place, with the Shard's Host being the current King of the Mountain (as of now I think this is my head-canon explanation for the #1 and #2 headbands seen in Afro Samurai).

B_Huij 18 points · Dec 2017 · :sa_era4: Roshar

Survival of the fittest sounds very much like Patji in Sixth of Dusk, which was just recently confirmed to actually be a shard! The island itself is reminiscent of the Galápagos Islands, which inspired Darwin.

dperabeles 7 points · Dec 2017

Who confirmed that Patji is a shard?

B_Huij 8 points · Dec 2017 · :sa_era4: Roshar

WoB just last week I believe.

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succybuzz 3 points · Dec 2017

Wasnt the patji island strong in cognitive skills though? Maybe cognitive positive inward is the one thats there.

aeiluindae 4 points · Dec 2017 · Truthwatchers

Patji may also be an expression of Autonomy, though, rather than a new shard.

elocnodnarb 6 points · Dec 2017

We know that autonomy like to express itself as a pantheon which also happens to be the name of the archipelago where that island reside. Coincidence? Unlikely.

Wubdor 5 points · Dec 2017 · Steel

Damn, this is all piling up into very convincing evidence now. All Oathbringer letters were confirmed to have been from Shards, so when the 2nd letter speaks of "we" and "us" despite being a Shard, and also speaks of "These waters and the challenges we've laid out for you to earn our respect" (paraphrased), this can't just be anything else anymore. I mean, read that 2nd letter and apply it to Patji/Autonomy. Sounds quite perfect. (Although wasn't it also rumoured that Taldain's shard is Autonomy with it being so isolated from the rest of the Cosmere?)

Juniebug9 6 points · Dec 2017 · Steel

Yes, Autonomy is located on Taldain. However it has created avatars of itself on many different worlds (Patji is probably one of these)

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newvox 43 points · Dec 2017 · Lerasium

First: This is my favorite Cosmere theory—thank you for posting! You've sold me on this framework, I believe it.

Second: If I could contribute, I'd suggest rearranging the order of the axes, as I think there's a way to further bolster this theory by folding in what we know about numerology in the Cosmere.

Namely, we have pretty good reason to believe the following Shard-number associations:

  • Preservation = 16
  • Honor = 10
  • Odium = 9
  • Endowment = 5

If we assign numbers to the 16 boxes in your chart, going left-to-right and top-to-bottom by quadrant, Shards 1-4 would correspond to Physical, Shards 5-8 would be Cognitive/Mental, Shards 9-12 would be Spiritual, and Shards 13-16 would be Temporal.

... and the math checks out REALLY WELL so far!

  • Endowment (5) is in the Cognitive/Mental category (5-8)
  • Odium (9) and Honor (10) are in the Spiritual category (9-12)
  • Preservation (16) is in the Temporal category (13-16)

All of this to say, we may need to reorder the axes within the quadrants to make the numbering consistent, but I think this further strengthens the theory. It even helps us guess at the Shardic numbers for the other Shards! (Sidebar: Of the ones we've met, I'm pretty sure Ruin = 1. Hemalurgy is in essence "one" magic system, and 16 x 1 = 16, which would explain why Feruchemy is also 16.)

What do you think?

HalcyonKnights [OP] 32 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Not something Id come even close to, but I do like it. It manages to explain why 16 is not thematically constant in all shards. How would you suggest rearranging the axis? It sounds like they all land in roughly the correct spots save for Ruin, Im not sure how to rotate it to preserve what fits.

(Dear lord, we've turned Philosophic Sudoku into a Philosophic Rubix Cube...)

newvox 9 points · Dec 2017 · Lerasium

"Rubix Cube" is spot on!! And exactly why I'm having such a hard time figuring out the solution to getting this all to work out. Currently doodling in the margins while in meetings, trying to get all the rows and columns to work out...

I'm leaning toward having Negative below/left of Positive, since that's how it tends to be in math, but struggling a bit with the fact that Honor and Odium are in diagonal boxes within their quadrant... It would also mean that Ruin isn't #1, so one of my assumptions is off.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

With a bit of axis flopping I can get Ruin in the upper left and Preservation in the lower right, but that leave odium's 9 in the bottom left while Endowment's 5 is on the far right second from the top. Not sure that gets us anywhere

succybuzz 3 points · Dec 2017

Maybe its not a left to right top to bottom ordered? For one odium is the lowest number in his group and yet the next number, 10 for honor, is always gonna be in the opposite square so that jind of ordering doesnt seem possible.

Another possibilty I notice is that spiritual could have 1,2,9,10. Physical 3, 4,11,12. Cognitive 5,6,13,14. And temporal 7,8,15,16. We really dont have the info yet to see how the numbers correlate to each group but it seems likely they do.

The best guess I can come up with for the system is that opposites within each group hold adjacent numbers, a odd number and a even number that is one higher. Like odium has 9 and honor has 10. This would mean ambition is 15 and autonomy is 6 (I might go reread white sand to hunt for numbers lol) In any case this would need more shardic numbers revealed to confirm

Really cool system you made though, Ill be looking for more stuff to verify this system now.

Pezz570 2 points · Dec 2017

Either the numbering order is really off and is not obvious, or perhaps it's the chart itself is off. Perhaps the chart is not a 16 by 16 chart but a circle split into 16 instead with axis split across the circle for positive and negative, and certain certain sections of the circle equaling spiritual, physical, cognitive and temporal? I don't know just throwing around ideas here to make the numbers work.

Lord_Emperor 3 points · Dec 2017

Philosophic Rubix Cube

I think it's a 2x2 tesseract.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Ya, we're chasing the Hypercube rabbit a little further down.

Have to say, Ever since Avengers I cant use the term tesseract with a straight face. It would be like actually writing a technical paper on Tachyons (which some poor schlubs have managed to do, Go Science!)

Aurora_Fatalis 2 points · Jan 2018 · CK3 Mod Team Lead

In which case it would be more appropriate to say you're playing Philosophical Quarto than Sudoku! In fact, someone needs to ask Sanderson if he's been playing Quarto...

elocnodnarb 3 points · Dec 2017

I think it likely that Ruin isn't #1, but is instead #8, which would make it a polar opposite (on a circle) to Preservation at #16 instead of a numerical opposite on a line. 8 lines up in world in a few different ways.

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DinoStapler 2 points · Dec 2017

Out of curiosity, why do you say 5 is a number of Endowment?

newvox 23 points · Dec 2017 · Lerasium

Mainly because the number 5 is so prevalent in the lore of Nalthis:

  • The Returned Divine Breath grants abilities of the Fifth Heightening
  • Vo, the first Returned, declared the Five Visions before dying again a week later
  • The Manywar was prompted by discoveries made by the Five Scholars
  • There are 25 (5 x 5) gods in the Hallandren Court of Gods

There are probably a few others that I'm missing, but those are the examples I remember off the top of my head.

DinoStapler 4 points · Dec 2017

That’s right! It’s been a while since I read Warbreaker but that makes sense. I wonder if the map here can infer other important numbers in future books.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 4 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Well, at this stage we can try guessing the remaining numbers in each quadrant but thats about it. We might want to go looking for referenced to 11 or 12 in Elantris, could point to Devotion's number. Dominion should be 6,7, or 8, and Im guessing there will eventually be that number of Sel Magic systems. There are 5 known so far, but also there's apparently another continent that we've not yet seen that likely has it's own system(s).

[deleted] 1 points · Dec 2017

Could there be some way to further split Physical/Spiritual/Mental/Temporal into more traits? Perhaps:

Self(Spiritual,Mental)/Other(Physical/Temporal)

Observable(Mental/Physical)/Unobservable (Spiritual/Temporal)

I don't think those are great suggestions but they work as an example. I'm also not very well-informed of the greater Cosmere lore quite yet.

Then we could assign a binary string to every shard where each bit of the string represents one of the four traits. We'd have to add 1 to the string to get a range of 1-16 but still. Then we could represent the shards in a hypercube.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 1 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Self(Spiritual,Mental)/Other(Physical/Temporal)

I think this dichotomy makes the most sense for that, a "Self vs World", "Inside vs Outside" sort of split.

I like the other one less, my inner nerd would start claiming Time is Observable to these entities, and everything would spiral out of control from there...

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sigismond0 39 points · Dec 2017

/u/mistborn, do we need a RAFO here?

mistborn 92 points · Dec 2017 · :dragonsteel:Author

Sure. RAFO!

Hella_Norcal 20 points · Dec 2017

I'm waiting for the day you march into some utterly absurd thread, give a RAFO to something preposterous, and effectively unleash reddit / 17th shard on a wild goose chase. Thank you for everything you do, Brandon. Truly.

mistborn 25 points · Dec 2017 · :dragonsteel:Author

:)

learhpa 8 points · Dec 2017 · Bondsmiths

How do you know he hasn't already?

zorro_pickanalytics 20 points · Dec 2017

Enlightenment might actually be Wisdom. In Wit's first conversation with Shallan in Oathbringer, he capitalizes Wisdom and says he's always been at odds with her. Unless there's a WoB about that I haven't seen.

Edit: Must have been a typo, just double checked and not capitalized anymore.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

I like it!

DinoStapler 2 points · Dec 2017

Can you quote the passage for me? Looking for it but can’t seem to find it

zorro_pickanalytics 5 points · Dec 2017

Sure.

Some men, as they age, grow wiser. I am not one of those, for wisdom and I have always been at cross-purposes, and I have yet to learn the tongue in which she speaks.

Page 679 according to my Kindle version

clicksallgifs 1 points · Dec 2017

Her. I got the same impression from the book

ctsjohnz 1 points · Dec 2017 · :ghostbloods: Ghostbloods

In our normal language, Wisdom is often capitalized and personified as female. Though that would be a cool hint at a shard, though...

JamCliche 13 points · Dec 2017

I wonder if we can infer the names of some Shards by comparing the allomantic metals' properties.

If we conflate "pulling/pushing" with "positive/negative", we could match up which metals on the allomantic chart line up with this chart. For instance, if Preservation is the External Negative Temporal Shard, it corresponds to Bendalloy, the External Pushing Temporal Metal, which seems to fit rather well. Bendalloy users slow down time for everyone outside their bubble. One could make the argument that Cadmium is the better choice for that, though, so who knows?

So I took the liberty of rearranging your chart to directly correlate to the allomantic wheel: https://coppermind.net/w/images/Metal_wheel.jpg

This is what I got: https://puu.sh/yAQxo/fe444be634.png

I'm basing my assumptions on things like the fact that Zinc riots or increases an emotion by pulling, and Brass soothes or decreases an emotion by pushing. I'm pretty confident that Pulling more closely aligns with a positive aspect and Pushing aligns with a negative one.

So, assuming we read left to right, top to bottom, sector by sector, the numbers go:

01 02 | 05 06

03 04 | 07 08

09 10 | 13 14

11 12 | 15 16

Which makes Ruin 1, Endowment 5, Dominion 6, Autonomy 8, Honor 10, Odium 11, Devotion 12, Ambition 13, Cultivation 15, and Preservation 16. Now, I don't know about Dominion, Autonomy, Devotion, Ambition, and Cultivation for sure, but I think the rest definitely line up with the number we expect, with the exception of Odium at 11. However, if we just swap Odium to the Internal Negative rather than External Negative, the Shard takes position 9. I think it's possible we're onto something. Or it's possible we've mislabeled all of these entirely. Hell it even matters which way we look at the wheel when we try to apply numbers.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Curiouser and Curiouser! Nice!

JamCliche 2 points · Dec 2017

Thanks! Like you, I totally see the allomantic chart as a roadmap for Adonalsium shards. I've been meaning to make a chart of this for a while, and you went and did the annoying part for me! I just rearranged it a little.

I'm pretty convinced that it's not a matter of if, but how things line up.

elocnodnarb 2 points · Dec 2017

I think that Passion (Odium) is definitely the Internal Pull, so He really does fit in 09.

Ripper1337 11 points · Dec 2017 · :truthwatchers: Truthwatchers

Really fucking great theory. My jaw dropped when I saw this as it made a lot of sense. I also have an aluminum hat theory about one of the shards.

The unknown "Survival Shard" could fit with Inward Negative Temporal rather than physical. Their knowledge stems from "knowing events in the cosmere."

Shards have always felt like they either can't use their future sight to see what is happening with shards in other systems or that they can't see the actions of other shards.

So a shard that could either see the present and future that is both cosmere wide and the other shards?

succybuzz 3 points · Dec 2017

If temporal negative out is preservation, it would make sense for temporal negative in to be self-preservation/survival

elocnodnarb 4 points · Dec 2017

I will need to think about the individual placements but I think your theory here is dead on.

I just wish I'd thought of it first! 😂

gurgelblaster 4 points · Dec 2017

I wonder if Odium isn't actually the Internal Negative Spiritual Shard, partly to match up numerically (hopping from 11 to its more established 9), but also because a lot of the imagery about Odium and Odiumspren etc. are based on the Void, and a lot of its actions seem to be almost more about people themselves choosing to sever their Spiritual Connections and feelings, giving them to Odium to keep. In some sense, Odium is even more about self-hate and self-loathing than it is about hate for anything external.

It's a bit weak, admittedly, and that would mean that the External counterpart would be something potentially even more agressive, though perhaps not quite as destructive as Odium. Comparing to Devotion, perhaps something like Ridicule?

HalcyonKnights [OP] 1 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

The reason I dont think Odium is an Internal is in the specifically dual definition for Odium (as opposd to Hatred) that we've been given: the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others*. The second part moves it into the realm of External/Outward; Odium as a concept doesnt work in the singular.

elocnodnarb 3 points · Dec 2017

On the other hand we know that "Odium" is a pseudonym and that his shardic intent is "passion" and according to him encompasses all strong emotion, a very INTERNAL concept.

Odium also has been been described as the void. He takes (subtraction) your pain and your guilt from you, returning a pale substitute in its place. Yo me this sounds net NEGATIVE.

So I think Odium definitely fits in the Internal+Pulling/Negative square.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Damn I really need to finish OB. You make a compelling argument.

Im forking the conversation a bit, check out [This]https://www.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/7i9ht9/all_a_theory_on_shardic_intents_part_2/] as well, Im trying to take a different method to identifying the various axis better.

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azmodain 3 points · Dec 2017

Nice! It'd be interesting to see the allomantic metals overlaid, might give some clues to the shards we are missing.

Mexopa 3 points · Dec 2017

First off all, great theory! I've tried to come up with more names but the physical shards are indeed tough. Anyway how about "Experience" instead of "Enlightenment" for cognitive, positive, internal? I think it fits just as well.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 1 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Experience feels like it has an innate Temporal Component to me, which I was trying to avoid; I had the same issue with Memory and Learning, and Im not entirely sure I avoided it with "Enlightenment" beyond the idea that Enlightenment in the Buddhist sense is more a state of being rather than an event. Split the difference to "Wisdom"?

Mexopa 1 points · Dec 2017

I meant "Experience" more in the sense of "having an Experience" rather than "being/becoming experienced". In the latter definition I can see the temporal aspect but in the former I'm not seeing it really. So this shard would just be about having as many different experiences as possible. I think it fits because it would live more in "the moment" so to speak. This would avoid a temporal component I think.

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seanprefect 3 points · Dec 2017

As a computer scientist i do have to point out that all numbers can be expressed in any number base

16 in base 2 is 10000

in base 3 16 is 121

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Fair point, "base" is the wrong term for what Im trying to express there. But I dont really know the right one for this other than maybe Aesthetic Numerology or equally silly.

seanprefect 2 points · Dec 2017

also remember as of right now there are only 15 shards :)

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

huh?

Edit: Oh, you mean because of Harmony? I seem to recall WOB confirming that they are still separate, that if the current host died it would release two separate Shards rather than a single recombined one. But I cant find the reference off-hand I was wrong, they are mingled enough it would take effort to separate them.

Georgepan13 2 points · Dec 2017 · :placecosmere: Defenders of the Cosmere

No, it's the opposite. It'd be 1 Shard and you'd need an event similar to the Shattering to divide it again. I'm almost certain.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 3 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Well, Im barely 60% sure, but now I want to track down the WoB. Race ya!

Edit: Here it is, you were right: "The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony."

Georgepan13 2 points · Dec 2017 · :placecosmere: Defenders of the Cosmere

So... I found quite a few and I'm not sure what to make out of them.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/214-a-memory-of-light-seattle-signing/#e4692

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/139-general-signed-books-2017/#e2258

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131-general-reddit-2016/#e3957

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190-rfantasy-ama-2013/#e4115

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96-holiday-signing/#e3184

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Hmm, so this makes it sound like they are still separate things that are just currently stuck together and/or co-mingled a bit. But they not completely merged. It would take specific effort to separate them, which is why Sazed would drop Harmony if he died. So the seam between the two still remains, and there are likely pockets of pure one or the other floating around in there, but they have been intertwined enough at this point that they would not spontaneously separate.

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elocnodnarb 2 points · Dec 2017

I think that for the sake of the chart, we can definitely say that the chart is an attempt to categorize the original 16 shards. Obviously we're going to continue to see trauma to the system as we move along.

If we really want to get technical, Honor, Devotion, Dominion, and Ambition have all been shattered and Ruin and Preservation are combined, so we really can say with some surety that there are only a maximum of 11 shards left.

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jofwu 3 points · Dec 2017 · :whitesand:

Shouldn't internal/external and positive/negative be mirrored? Pretty sure that's how the Allomantic chart works, and it would put Preservation and Ruin more opposite, as I see it.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 1 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Im thinking so, Ill see about updating the picture.

Shagomir 2 points · Dec 2017 · White Sand

I made a really similar post about a month ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/7c35lh/all_shard_speculation_based_on_the_allomantic/

I came up with a few different ideas, but maybe it could help you?

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Nice, definitely similar premise, though we shuffled the deck differently. I think we had a similar idea behind Providence and Ascetic, works nicely.

Shagomir 1 points · Dec 2017 · White Sand

I think we might be on to something with this though, Brandon has said multiple times that he didn't really canonize the Cosmere stuff until he started writing Mistborn, it would make sense for the same kind of ideas he used for Allomancy to leak into the rest of the Cosmere.

Comatose333 2 points · Dec 2017

I like this idea a lot, but I have two potential issues.
(1) Ruin wants things to exist so it can destroy the things. It wants a state of destruction rather then nothingness (hence the deal with Preservation to create. If Ruin wanted nothing, the deal wouldn’t be necessary). This could be the Vessel Ati interfering, but it is a red flag for me. (2) It bothers me that Odium and Dominion occupy opposite spaces like Ruin and Pres, but are not diametrically opposed.

Basically, I might move things around I bit, but I love the four quadrants theory.

donkyhotay 1 points · Dec 2017

You may definitely be onto something here OP.

xRyuuji7 1 points · Dec 2017

So, do we know what shard is likely in control of The Returned?

HalcyonKnights [OP] 8 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

The Returned

That's confirmed to be Endowment. The giant Divine Breath is a literal Splinter of Endowment that she gives each Returned.

clicksallgifs 1 points · Dec 2017

So it was bothering me that we have 3/4 of the temporal and spiritual. I think that inward negative could be depression. For which I'm not sure. Depression makes you destructive of yourself. As well as keep you in 1 negative frame of mind for a long period.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

That was actually my first thought as well (Depression/Nihlism), but I was reaching for something a bit more morally neutral. That led me to Conviction, as a similar resistance to Change that Preservation was, and rather than Nihlism for Spiritually Inwardly Negative I was imagining the Shardic equivalent of a Hermit: not necessarily a pessimistic person (as in literally "negative toward self"), just against forming spiritual bonds.

clicksallgifs 1 points · Dec 2017

Conviction is very much temporal. I like it, I didn't draw that parallel with the "resistant to change". What about spiritual?

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Sorry, typo made that entirely unclear: my guess for Inward Negative Spiritual was Solitude the Shardic Hermit, who was not a negative person persay but simply didnt want to interact with anything else and/or form any emotional/spiritual connections

DeusXEqualsOne 1 points · Dec 2017 · :harmonium: Scadrial

Based on that you could say that Preservation and Ruin are the positive/negative temporal shards, respectively, which makes total sense.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 3 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

The reason I dont like that placement as much is because Preservation has Future Sight while Ruin does not appear to, and I theorize that all four Temporal Shards should have that capability (either the only ones or they'd be substantially better at it than other shards).

DeusXEqualsOne 2 points · Dec 2017 · :harmonium: Scadrial

But isn't it atium that grants future sight? That's specifically Ruin's metal.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

...curse you and your logic.

Im going with Harmonies own explanation:Harmony speculates that atium makes the allomancer burning it a more efficient killer since it draws upon Ruin's power.

That explains why his metal grants future-sight even though Ruin the shard is confirm to not be good at that ability. Also helps explain why atium has so much overlap with Electrum.

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peachdoxie 1 points · Dec 2017

This is super cool, op. Question though: what exactly are you defining as "positive" and "negative"?

HalcyonKnights [OP] 4 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

I was trying to describe it as vaguely as possible to avoid restricting or influencing any possibilities, and especially to avoid any moral overtones. If you can describe the Intent in the form of "They Dont want [something representative of it's realm/quadrant] to affect themselves [or others]" it's likely a Negative. If they Do want something, its a Positive.

Relative to it's match across some axis, the positive/negative is that one shard is concerned with promoting or Increasing something, whereas the Negative is defined by it's opposition to something.

peachdoxie 1 points · Dec 2017

Thanks for the clarification!

jofwu 2 points · Dec 2017 · :whitesand:

This is a big question. I don't really like it, as many shards can be either depending on your perspective. Many of them are, in my opinion, ambiguous. And I'd argue some should be swapped.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

I agree whole-heatedly, this is really just my first stab at fitting the pieces together with half-suspected relationships (like the future-sight thing). It's a jigsaw puzzle but we're missing pieces and don't know what the picture looks like.

And I'd argue some should be swapped.

Awesome, which ones?

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succybuzz 1 points · Dec 2017

What about survival being the internal negatve temporal shard, sort of like the internal version of preservation, e.g. self-preservation.

[deleted] 1 points · Dec 2017

Suggestions for physical:

  • Physical In Positive: <shard> does want self to be physical - survival, this seems like the most obvious one.

  • Physical In Negative: <shard> does not want self to be physical - something to do with ascending to a higher plane of existence or overcoming your physical existence? Ascetic doesn't sound bad, but maybe Transcendence? Maybe something to do with cognitive shadows?

  • Physical out positive: <shard> does want others to be physical - protection... That sounds a bit too much like Preservation's MO and Harmony's, but maybe we'll get some more insight in their Intents in the future that highlights the difference.

Or maybe physical out positive is more about giving ideas physical form or existence. Maybe this shard is more of a divine craftsman like Cosmere's version of Hephaestus.

HalcyonKnights [OP] 2 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Or maybe physical out positive is more about giving ideas physical form or existence. Maybe this shard is more of a divine craftsman like Cosmere's version of Hephaestus.

This is where my head's been on the PhysOut+, a straight-up Creator Shard, though I dont like that particular term (too abrahamic in connotation). Maybe Inspiration?

Mexopa 2 points · Dec 2017

Inspiration makes a lot of sense imo. The shard wants others to create in the physical world and does not create as much directly.

Pezz570 1 points · Dec 2017

What if we take each of these individual squares in the chart and plop in the Allomantic metals chart? Could we then start predicting The abilities for individual God metal alloys??? My understanding of the Atium Alloys is that they grant mental and temporal effects though while Lerasum is Physical and Enhancement...

Pezz570 1 points · Dec 2017

I mean, We already know one Atium Alloy, Malatium, which allows you to see other people's possible past selves. This reflects very nicely with Ruin's position on this chart as outward/external The negative/Positive thing I don't really like though, perhaps it would be best to continue following the Allomantic chart's example and change negative/positive to push and pull? I don't know, I feel like this is very close to being correct, but is just off a touch.

elocnodnarb 1 points · Dec 2017

In the page about Alethi Glyphs, Nahz (I think it's a safe bet to guess that's who's writing) swears "by Purity's eye".

This sounds like a Shardic intent if you ask me. So I would propose Purity as an Internal Cognitive Pull Shard.

-Internal because Purity is a very personal think. -Cognitive because Purity is about how one views what something is. After all Pure Steel is not pure at all, it's Iron, Oxygen, and Carbon. -Pull again because it's so personal. You can't really inflict purity on others you can really only purify the self.... no I mean you can refine and purify other things.... hmm so push or pull really. Any thoughts?

HalcyonKnights [OP] 1 points · Dec 2017 · Harmonium

Purity feels muddled a bit. The sort of Personal Purity Im used to considering feels like more of an emotional/spiritual thing, at which point Im not sure I could untangle it from Honor at that point. Meanwhile, Cognitive Purity sounds a lot like what Autonomy might call itself.

elocnodnarb 3 points · Dec 2017

After posting this elsewhere, someone else pointed out that Purity is the name of a planet in the Threnodite system, where Nahz is from.

It's likely a Jupiter-esc gas giant with a storm that looks like an eye.

DobeBerg 1 points · Dec 2017

No matter if this is the truth, it sets a rather high bar for the real truth - which makes me quite excited since in my book Sanderson is usually not one to stay below it.

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