New bit of theory support...
I'm re-reading Turn Coat at the moment, and have stumbled across yet another small bit of support for my Cowl = Dumorne = Kemmler theory. Or at least for the Cowl == Dumorne part. Like most of the bits I regard as "supporting," this is small, and in no way constitutes "proof." But I feel like it's another bit of what winds up being a fairly large pile of supporting clues.
In Ghost Story, Harry makes the following comments about Dumorne:
“Forty-six times,” Justin corrected me, his voice very precise, like always. He had an accent, but I couldn’t figure out which kind it was. I hadn’t heard one like it on TV. Not that Justin had a TV. I had to sneak out on Friday nights to watch it in the store at the mall, or else face the real risk that I’d miss Knight Rider altogether.
And in Turn Coat, we have this bit between Binder and Dresden, right after Harry and Lara have put down Binder and Madeline Raith:
“Who was Madeline working for?” I asked.
He shook his head. “She didn’t tell me.”
“Think,” I said. “Think hard.”
“All I know,” he said, “is that it was some bloke with a lot of money. I never talked to him. When she was on the phone with him, they spoke English. He wasn’t a native speaker. Sounded like he’d learned it from a Continental.”
I frowned. Television has most people confident that they could identify the nationality of anyone speaking English, but in the real world, accents could be muddy as hell, especially when you learned from a non-native speaker. Try to imagine the results, for example, of a Polish man learning English from a German teaching at a Belgian university. The resulting accent would twist a linguist’s brain into knots.
I've always thought Cowl (in our out of costume) was the "second human presence" that Harry sensed arrive on Demonreach. The ones that brought the spiders with them. That's one of two places where Jim unnecessarily adds an additional person to the mix. The story would have flowed just fine had there only been one human presence - Peaboddy, supposedly - bringing in the spiders. But there were two. Why? I think Jim was deliberately dropping a clue.
The other such spot was when Donny Wise told Harry about who he saw at the Sells lake house when he took those pictures. "Linda, some other woman. Three men." "Some other woman" would hve been Helen Beckitt, and two of the three men would be Sells himself and Greg Beckitt. No third man was required for the immediate story or ever mentioned again / caught up with. A clue, I believe. Now, it could have been "Gimpy Lawrence," but honestly that's just boring, since Gimpy was already dead by this point. That would have added nothing to the story. But in numerous places Jim alludes to "someone else" being out there, setting up all of these events that Harry had to deal with.
I hold that this is Cowl, in every instance. We know Cowl's voide is hidden, but I figure he costumes up only when he feels there's a strong chance of encountering someone who would recognize him. In these other situations, he's in his civvies and would speak with his normal voice.
Now, this isn't perfect. I figure Cowl to be at the very top of the Black Council, and Harry speculated in Turn Coat that Peabody had fouled up in this situation - he'd let LaFortier tumble to his traitorous nature, and had to kill him, and the rest was him desperately trying to keep that from blowing up on him. Harry figured he wouldn't go to the Black Council for help so as not to out his mistake to them. If Cowl is at the top of the org and was the person on the phone with Madeline, then that's clearly wrong - the whole situation had been reported right up to the top. But Harry's speculation just might have been inadequate. Given the strength of the enemy response that night on Demonreach, it's hard to think it was a situation Peabody was "trying to contain." I think he did fess up, and that's when Cowl got involved. That level of response did shock Harry - he was not expecting a battle that big at all, as is clear from the fear he feels when everyone starts arriving for the show.
I figure Madeline didn't call up the skinwalker when Harry and Luccio showed up at Chateau Raith. She called Cowl, and he sent in the skinwalker. And notice that the skinwalker did not kill Harry. He could have, easily. Many times Cowl/Dumorne has had the opportunity to kill Harry but has refrained. He could have had He Who Walks Behind kill him at that convenience store. He could have killed him personally when Harry came to rescue Elaine, but didn't - instead running an elaborate scam to fake his own death. He could have killed Harry again at Murphy's house in Dead Beat. And he could have ordered the skinwalker to kill him. The skinwalker made like he was going to kill Harry during their final fight on Demonreach, but of course we can't be 100% sure he was actually going to. Jim's not going to make something like that too obvious.
At any rate, it makes a lot more sense to me that the skinwalker would take orders from Cowl than it does having Madeline be able to trot him around. Cowl's got alliances all over the place - his fingers are in or have been in all the pies.
I also think Luccio is tainted. More than was made obvious in Turn Coat, I mean. She told Harry she had family in Algeria. And Algeria was one of the places that phone Harry got from Binder had called. A small coincidence, but all of these clues are small. It's a connection that Jim didn't have to include (which he could have also included by accident - maybe Algeria was just in the news or something when Jim was writing Turn Coat). And in "A Fistful of Warlocks" Luccio was chasing Kemmler. I think she later caught up with him, challenged him, and lost - I think he turned her then.
So, that's the new thing. Small. But another card in the deck.
81 comments · 88% upvoted · other discussions
Justin apprenticed under Simon Pietrovich, senior council member, and was known to be involved in taking down Kemmler.
Unless Kemmler did a body switch á la Corpsetaker, there's little chance they can be the same person.
If he did do a body switch, then got his trusty skull before working with it for decades, and then stealing it again to use it as Cowl, how and why would he fool Bob? Bob was a top secret asset the wardens was bent on destroying, no reason for a necromancer who had already cheated death 6 times before to suddenly go all in on fooling his spiritual assistant into believing he was someone else. And it's not exactly likely that a person like this would be able change his behaviour overnight either.
Bob would likely detect or recognize the spirit/soul within, both in Justin and Cowl, regardless of shared bodies or souls in this who's who. This would just as likely come up in a conversation with Harry in any given aftermath where Bob is consulted. We are not privvy to every single conversation between Bob and Harry.
This is a very strong argument for Kemmler =/= Justin =/= Cowl.
Miserable-Card-2004 16 points · Sep 2025
We've also seen that Bob is capable of either deleting or completely blocking off memories, especially when ordered to, such as after we got Evil Bob. I think Kemmler could easily have ordered Bob to wall off his "homework folder" so that Harry wouldn't accidentally find it in the course of his studies. And that's assuming Bob is actually on Harry's side in all this. For all we know, Bob could still be working for Kemmler and just acting helpful to Harry as a cover. Harry is already dead set against the Council's decisions, especially if he deems their decision stupid. Harry will keep Bob safe no matter what. Which is exactly what Bob wants.
I think Kemmler did swap with Justin on their last encounter. I mean, just look at his student, Corpsetaker. She was incredibly difficult to kill, and it was only because Harry knew Luccio well enough to spot the subtle difference. I think Kemmler would absolutely swap with Justin at the last second, finish off his old body, then act like "hey, I killed Kemmler!" "Three cheers for Justin, Necromancer-slayer!" I think Kemmler was always predisposed towards being a sneaky SOB. For a dude hundreds of years old, what's another few decades of lying low, building up powerful followers, and rising again? What's faking his death (again) and making his most promising pupil have to power-grind for a few more decades while also being manipulated?
Also, I think he's been in league with the Outsiders for a while, if not since the beginning. I fully expect that Kemmler is, in fact, behind the Black Council. I expect that we'll finally get a cartoonish reveal that
"muah-hahahahaha! It was me, Kemmler, all along, pushing you to become greater, more powerful! It was me, pulling your strings like a puppet, guiding you to greatness! Join me, Harry, and together, we can rule the universe as father and son!"
"I'll never join you, Kemmler!"
"Then you will die like your foolish mother and father!"
"You killed my parents?!?"
"Yes, Harry. Margaret was one of my best pupils, but rejected my teachings, choosing instead to join with the Fae. Foolish girl!"
"Bold words for someone in fireball range. . . "
account312 7 points · Sep 2025
I think there's a 0% chance they didn't have multiple wardens using the sight during the battle to verify Kemmler's death.
LaughingRaptor 3 points · Sep 2025
Absolutely not. Do you want gibbering insane wardens? Because that's how you get gibbering insane wardens.
account312 3 points · Sep 2025
Morgan probably relaxed at night by remembering killing Kemmler.
HauntedCemetery 2 points · Sep 2025
And killing him several times.
Sleep-typing 2 points · Sep 2025
You are not incorrect when it comes to Bob, but as far as we've seen:
1: Bob is beholden to whomever holds and owns the skull. (Though its ownership is a bit unclear, is it the last person who touched the skull?)
2: Bob does not care for or about morality and subjective interpretations.
3: Bob is probably strongly influenced by his owners. I doubt Kemmler gave him much room to be witty, argumentative, insulting (the funny way) or demanding. His affection for the female body and romance novels is almost certainly a mirror of Harry. Bob also changed a little after his time with Butters. This further confirms ownership, regardless of the "naming-theory", which also would have changed the "Kemmler-era-personality".
4: Bob is a bad liar (almost suspisciously bad), and deflects. He does however never have a reason to lie outside of direct orders, as he doesn't really care anything when it comes to morality, apart from what rubs off from his current owner. The exception being when he himself feels direct discomfort.
5: Bob does not have free will as such, but can make the occasional choice, sometimes in accordance with the morality and perceived intentions of the current owner. This is also sabotaged by his mischievous nature and self-interests (like when he left Harry to have fun after throwing him that one potion, after first negotiating time off in return for helping out.)
6: Bob frequently mentions that he deleted memories, which means he can remember at least that much.
7: We also know he can be ordered by the current owner of the skull to bypass blocks from previous holders.
8: Bob did not like himself when he was with Kemmler and warned Harry that accessing the blocked information would be bad for everyone involved.
9: As for 1, Bob somehow kept some sort of allegiance to Kemmler, when he accessed that part, as we know from when he almost killed Harry, yet he also obeyed the command when Harry told him the conversation was over. This could also be attributed to pure evil self-interest, rubbed off from Kemmler, but still also confirms that Bob is indeed bound to the current owner regardless of self-interest.
10: Kemmler would likely not have allowed Harry to keep the skull or get it back (unless he was supposed to be a double-agent foiled by the order to delete memories). Cowl needed Bob for specific information, and knew of the skull as an apprentice of Kemmler. Though, even then it's weird that Cowl didn't steal Bob again, but it is possible that Cowl just didn't understand Bob fully - as Kemmler and Justin did.
11: Harry is a smart guy that knows all of this, in addition to being savvy on the trickeries of the supernatural world. It's just unfair to his character to even assume that he wouldn't think of asking Bob directly about prohibited or deleted information from his time with Justin or Cowl. Hell, Harry should and would have relentlessly dragged out every bit of information about Cowl the poor spirit could cough up.
The only counter-argument to some of this I can come up with is that if Kemmler = Justin = Cowl and Bob knew, then poor wording on ordering him to delete memories from his time with Kemmler would erase memories from his time with all of them. On the other hand, that would also be a dead give-away to Harry when Bob suddenly knows nothing of Justin or Cowl either.
The thing that bugs me is how virtually no-one knew that Harry had Bob to begin with, considering how strictly he kept that secret.
I don't think Bob would be able to act like a puppet for such a long time, esåecially not after discarding the Kemmler-nemories. Neither Kemmler nor Justin could do more than guess at whether and where.
As for Justin being Kemmler, no way a 16 year old Harry would be able to withstand thralldom from a warlock at that level, even if his powers were diminished from a body-swap, which I doubt was a huge down grade.
Following the chain of logic in which Kemmler=Justin=Cowl and infected:
The only thing that would have made sense in this scenario was for Kemmler to swap into Harrys body the second he could confirm that he was a Starborn. If unable to confirm that before sending HWWB, if he actually did do that, then swapping as Cowl with assistance from Kumori would be a very logical plan B.
Whichever body Harry then swapped into would also already be infected.
We kinda know that Harry is going to open the outer gates at some point, which has to be a goal of the outsiders, knowing he is a Starborn, which likely is the reason Harry wasn't killed off at any of the points when it could have been easily achieved.
But Cowl did actually try to kill Harry at one point, which just doesn't sit well with Cowl being Justin or infected, as that would have ruined all the plans the outsiders had for Harry.
Not sure exactly where I wanted to go with all of this, but there are some things that just don't fit into the theory.
It's much more likely, IMO, that Justin just got warped from tapping into Kemmler-Bob or being targeted by outsiders as a result of adopting Harry. Assuming Justin knew of the skull by way of the white council, tasked with destroying it and keeping it instead after trying it out and meeting "Kemmler-Bob", as opposed to digging it out because Kemmler-Justin wanted his assistant back.
ThickSourGod 3 points · Sep 2025
One thing worth remembering is that everything Harry knows about Bob was told to him by Bob.
"Bob has to do what he's told" and "Bob wants Harry to think he has to do what he's told" would both result in identical behavior from Bob.
Sleep-typing 1 points · Sep 2025
Except for the things he witnessed and experienced himself.
I.e. Bob changing over time, being an honest bad liar, and the fact that he still took commands while having reverted to Kemmler-Bob.
ThickSourGod 3 points · Sep 2025
No, including those things. Bob could be pretending to be a bad liar. The entire Kemmler-Bob thing could have been an act to reinforce the idea that Harry is in control.
If Bob was still loyal to Kemmler, then anything he says or does could be part of a long con to manipulate and control a Star Born. All of Harry's information about Bob comes from Bob. Unless I'm forgetting something, nothing has been backed up by external sources.
Miserable-Card-2004 1 points · Sep 2025
This exactly.
Now, this isn't to say I really think Bob is out to screw Harry. However, with things we've seen in the recent books, I'd say all bets are off. Anyone can and possibly is working for the Outsiders, and if they're not, then it's equally possible they're manipulating him as a weapon against the Outsiders. I think this is one of those cases where even his closest allies see him as a hydrogen bomb and are intentionally manipulating him to work on their side.
Except Micheal. I truly believe he is as pure-hearted as they come and is just genuinely Harry's friend. Eh, Butters, too, though I think he's still manipulating Harry at least a little.
ThickSourGod 1 points · Sep 2025
Even Michael. Well, not Michael himself, but the White God. We very literally have to take it on faith that The White God is good. I really really don't think Jim would write it this way, but Michael could be being manipulated through his faith to aid the forces of evil.
Miserable-Card-2004 1 points · Sep 2025
My point is that Micheal would never manipulate Harry. He could absolutely (and very easily) be a pawn in someone else's game. Mmm, let me rephrase that. He would never manipulate Harry to do something Harry wouldn't normally do. He's definitely guilt-tripped Harry in the past in a "I'm not mad, just disappointed."
At this point, though, I wouldn't be too surprised if Jim pulled a "the White God has been an onscreen character the whole time!" Kinda like how Donner Vadderung is Odin/Santa Claus. I would also be very surprised if he turned out to be evil or even amoral. From everything we've seen thus far, he seems very chill while also 777 moves ahead of everyone else in 7D chess. I mean, he answered Harry's prayer even though Harry isn't one of his followers. Not even in a "you owe me one" kind of way. Just in a "sure buddy. You got it."
Sleep-typing 1 points · Sep 2025
First off, Harry's experiences with Bob is not limited to what we have been told. Since he knew of the skull to begin with, it is not unlikely that Harry has observed a lot of interaction between Bob and Justin. Butters could also have shared his experiences.
Secondly, not everything is about what he actually did, but also what he did not do, or the lack of reason to do or not do things.
Sure, there are arguably conflicting evidence. In Grave Peril Bob lies to the vampire holding the skull, though it's unclear whether they actually did hold it, and not just the sack. In Dead Beat. Bob helps Cowl when he has the skull, then sabotage Cowl by possessing the dino, I can't remember if Harry got a hold of the skull before the possession. Even if it points to him being able to act of his own accords, in the latter case it seems kind of an pointlessly risky endeavour with nothing to gain at the risk of everything.
Why help Cowl and then sabotage when he could have just lied to begin with and get the same results. Helping Harry and sabotaging Cowl makes even less sense if Cowl is Kemmler.
In Storm front, Bob cared more about getting a vacation than actualy helping Harry. What could possibly be the end game with Harry when he left before he even knew if Harry caught the potion? There was evidence Bob didn't hide and stick around to make sure Harry got out of it alive or to help out if things got worse. I think this is pretty clear evidence that Bob doesn't actually care whether Harry actually lives, which is an argument against a long co to control Harry.
In Ghost Story, Bob had no agenda or reason to risk himself to help Harry against Kemmler-Bob outside of Butters' orders. It's probably more likely Bob would have been better off, evil plans-wise, if he didn't help.
Kemmler-Bob and Bob would also largely have shared purpose and goal in a world where Bob was still loyal to Kemmler, making it doubly pointless to help Harry fight/escape Kemmler-Bob.
Why stick around with Butters to begin with for months when Harry was dead if there was a specific evil plan regarding Harry? Why not go back to his master at that point if the skull is inconsquential?
Even "keeping Harry's trust" is a thin justification when Bob had little but a suspicion it was even possible for Harry to return to his old body, and possible is not the same as likely or realistic.
Of course there is a theoretical possibilty that Bob re-absorbed Kemmler-Bob again instead of just helping, but then why shed him to begin with? Just in case eactly what happened would happen?
There's just to much that points to Bob being loyal to Harry and Butters, and too much that doesn't make sense if he isn't.
IR_1871 3 points · Sep 2025
Yeah, I don't see Kemmler being capable of fooling people who know Justin well. Corpsetaker certainly couldn't have done it. Harry clocked it immediately. She couldn't have faked morality and responsibility, and its highly likely a monster like Kemmler couldn't either. You need empathy for that, something lacking in those who embrace dark manage.
CamisaMalva 4 points · Sep 2025
The idea that Kemmler switched bodies with Justin all hinges on the assumption that he shared that technique with Corpsetaker, as opposed to it being something unique to her just like how the One-Woman Rave is unique to Molly rather than something she learned from Harry.
That, and how come Harry was tainted by black magic after breaking First Law if Justin was Kemmler? He couldn't ever win against the likes of him, and neither would he just fake his death when Harry is completely isolated and outgunned by him.
Jedi4Hire 3 points · Sep 2025
And the assumption that the White Council wouldn't have been prepared to counter it.
CamisaMalva 2 points · Sep 2025
This.
Jim Butcher was very explicit when asked that the Senior Council specifically bound his soul so that he couldn't revive himself, which most definitely wouldn't allow Kemmler to swap places with Justin DuMorne if he somehow knew the Corpsetaker's body-stealing trick.
[deleted] -3 points · Sep 2025
[deleted]
CamisaMalva 8 points · Sep 2025
The Darkhallow and Corpsetaker's body-stealing technique are two very different things, and again, all wizards have different talents and weaknesses because their individual personalities define what they do with magic.
Even though the Kemmlerites were proficient in Necromancy, they all seemed to have different takes on it: Grevane went for traditional Voodoo zombies, Corpsetaker preferred ghosts, Kumori used it to keep someone's soul from leaving his body as he was dying... Nothing really indicates that Kemmler was inclined in any form to mind magic the way she is.
... No?
Mouse would've known if they were both the same person by smell alone, which didn't happen in either Dead Beat or The Fugitive, and what Cowl wanted to do was recruit Harry back when they first met.
Compare that to his reappearance in White Night, where he tries to kill Harry numerous times and he only survives thanks to luck or circumstances. Cowl is always visibly mad at him for botching his ascension ritual and nearly getting him killed in the process.
Well, I hope not.
Neither of them like each other at all and this series doesn't lend itself for Back to the Future-style shenanigans unless you either want Harry to corrupt himself into oblivion or don't mind Marcone putting the timeline at risk by messing with the course of history.
BOBOnobobo 5 points · Sep 2025
Thank you! At least someone is thinking further than "this sounds cool".
CamisaMalva 2 points · Sep 2025
Thanks~ he he he
introvertkrew 1 points · Sep 2025
I definitely agree that Cowl isn't a future Harry. Amusingly though, Jim Butcher used Back to the Future as his comparison for what the time travel novel will be. Though, he also said that Harry wouldn't be carrying anybody with him. It's no longer book 19 though, this is from his 2017 Comicpalooza Q&A, since then he's said he wants this book to be the last book before the BAT, or maybe the second to last, can't remember.
Sleep-typing 1 points · Sep 2025
Cowl did try to kill Harry in the White Court cave, though.
Unless it was a very specific Twelve Monkeys/Harry Potter saving himself paradox-scenario in which a specific event had to be repeated so that Harry could get rid of Lasciel and not alter time.
But logic makes that specific paradox impossible as it has to happen before it can happen, unless events are altered by a Harry-Cowl with Lash still in his head and time branched - Which we know is very bad for existence.
introvertkrew 0 points · Sep 2025
Harry isn't taking anybody time-traveling with him according to Jim. He shared some about the time-travel book, I copied the WoJs and posted them in response to CamisaMalva's response to you if you want to scroll down and see what he said about it. It actually sounds great and his reasoning is pretty solid.
Sleep-typing 0 points · Sep 2025
This isn't Naruto, so Corpsetaker isn't utilising a Bloodline ability. People have affinities, sure, but anyone can basically do anything when they practice and know what to practice, assuming they can control the energies and number of spells simultaneously. Molly's one girl rave is nothing more than extreme finesse and control of many many small rearrangements of energy at the same time.
Harry isn't tainted, but the White council and the wardens assumed he was. Breaking the laws doesn't taint you in itself, but it will likely bring you down a darker path in which you keep justifying the continued breaking of them. This is the taint they refer to.
Fire magic, like any other, isn't black or white. It's the intentions, emotions and purpose behind the fire magic that makes the magic black or white. Harry use fire for good, protecting the defenseless and such, thus it is white. Had he incinerated the White House to kill the president and spread fear, it would have been black.
CamisaMalva 2 points · Sep 2025
If that were the case, Molly could've easily learned to shoot torrents of white-hot fire like her master does and Harry himself could've just asked Ramirez to teach him his own brand of corrosion-based water magic.
There are general things that anyone can learn, like opening gates into the Nevernever or that "Sunshine in a handkerchief" trick Harry pulled on Bianca, but wizards are pretty much like Jūjutsu Kaisen sorcerers in that they have inherent affinities they gotta work with. That's why Harry is not that good at Evocation while mostly focusing on fire and force magic, since he's not really good at water and earth magic.
Leaving aside that the White Council has Foo Dog-based statues that can literally smell the black magic on you and how McCoy literally needs to use Mother Winter's walking stick to filter out the corruption that comes from breaking the Laws of Magic (Which very visibly manifests as blackened flesh on him), the loa Ulshavaras literally told Harry that he's got the taint of black magic on him in Death Masks while he once thought to himself that Cowl's magic has the scent of black magic like his own in Dead Beat.
Breaking the Laws of Magic brings you down a darker path BECAUSE not only does using black magic leave a taint that makes you a worse person, it is also addictive and causes to keep doing it until you've effectively become evil.
Considering the prior evidence showing that breaking the Laws very much corrupts you?
Yes, it would- otherwise Hannah Ascher wouldn't have ended up corrupting herself when she killed her would-be rapists. The only thing that kept her from spiraling out of control was her friends from the Order of St. Giles, and as soon as they died she ended up joining Nicodemus "Satan's Greatest Soldier" Archleone to go on a misguided revenge quest against Harry.
You need to believe that you have a right to do X in order to successfully cast a spell, but magic itself is an unfeeling force of cosmic nature that makes no distinctions at all regardless of whether you were only defending yourself from an assailant (Like Harry fighting DuMorne) or just wanted to senselessly kill someone (Like Victor Sells murdering Tommy Tomm). Otherwise no one would ever get corrupted by black magic since the majority of Warlocks didn't ever know about the Laws.
But it happens anyway, and you get people like that Korean teen who became a mass murderer by age 16 after nearly wiping out his entire family.
Sleep-typing -2 points · Sep 2025
Molly doesn't have the raw power to do what Dresden does in the same way Dresden doesn't have the finesse to do what Molly or Asher does.
When it comes to Ramirez, for all you know Harry has already done so. It would still take Harry years to practice, which is time he doesn't have. Fire and cold works for him, and from a physics pov they also work in tandem.
Harry is very very good at the evocations he has practiced, his fire, cold and force. The reason he himself claims to be bad at it is because he doesn't have the finesse to use his evocations effectively. The finesse comes with age and maturity.
If Harry was tainted, it would be weird that the foo dog statues still gave him a pass, no? In Dead beat he becomes tainted because Bob force-fed him "true" magic.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say in your last part. Hannah Ascher killed three people in self defense, and she spent the rest of her life fleeing from the wardens, claiming her self-defense tainted her, until she found someone willing to protect her.
That's not being tainted, that's accepting the help you could get.
Hold up, are you one of those who thinks breaking the laws of magic inherently corrupts? And also thinks that every case and type of magic either is or isn't a violation? Like fire magic is always evil?
OG Merlin founded the WC and wrote the laws of magic, yet we know for a fact that he himself frequently violated at least one of them to create Demonreach.
Are you saying the OG Merlin was tainted and corrupted, yet somehow still one of the best things to happen to the human world? Or do you consider him an evil warlock for having broken his own laws?
KipIngram [OP] 2 points · Sep 2025
That's exactly what I think happened. The Council nearly took Kemmler out in 1961, but I think that's where Kemmler body jacked Justin, so it was Justin that died in Kemmler's body. I think the main reason Jim wrote in the Corpsetaker / Luccio switch was so we'd "see it" and know it was a thing - that way when it's invoked later to explain how Kemmler's still around it won't seem all deus ex machina to it.
I think we routinely overestimate Bob's capabilities. I don't think he ever knew Justin was actually Kemmler. Or, he may know - he may be in on the whole thing. I hope not, but it's possible. I theorize that Justin staged the whole duel, so he had every opportunity to secure Bob somewhere, but he deliberately left him out where Harry would find him. He wanted Bob to be with Harry. I think Bob's at lest an unwitting mole, and possible a willing accomplice. I really hope for unwitting, but I do think Harry's going to suffer some major betrayal at some point, and Bob is definitely a candidate for that.
I think even if he's unwitting, he's still been "programmed" to deliver an intelligence update on Harry to Cowl whenever Harry lets him out.
Apprehensive-File251 3 points · Sep 2025
The problem here with this is that Kemmler!cowl doesn't make any sense on motivations. Kemmler!cowl could have done the darkhallow without the word, or bob. No reason for him to interfere with harry at all. And in fact, if kemmler survived for the past- what, 40+ years without the white council on his trail, he could have rounded up his old apprentices, new ones, performed the darkhallow at any point.
If he wanted to steal bob, why would he then plan on lying to bob? did he plan on harry spying on him and stealing bob back? that sounds very defeatest for the guy who /thought/ he was minutes away from godhood, and had previously tackled the entire council before. Not a lot of reason to keep up the ruse.
Also, this part is vaguer, but i distinctly recall that harry felt that Cowl's magic was /not/ tainted in the way that a lot of black arts magic is. Yet we see that almost all of Kemmler's apprentices *do* have magic that feels inherently wrong when Harry touches it.
Basically, i don't see a single story reason for Kemmler to still be around, much less to be Cowl. The idea that Cowl. We know Justin was not a great dude, seemed to have some plans for harry- and him Cowl would make a lot of sense. Or there are several other possibilities for Cowl, especially since he seems to be doing a lot more then just necromancy, and have a Plan, where Kemmler seemed to just be about gathering personal power.
I think if Kemmler was going to be the big bad, he would be referenced more frequently. We might have heard of him earlier, or works/apprentices connected to him would have come up waaay more often. Justin's name has been mentioned many times. Kemmler- i think showed up /once/, and while Corpsetaker showed up again- i think it was specifically because she was the only villian that made sense for where the plot needed to go, because butcher needed a way to help bring harry and Luccio together, move the plot in a couple specific ways.
Sleep-typing 1 points · Sep 2025
And also this isn't Harry Potter in which an old dead warlock with immortality as a hobby is the ultimate bad guy.
Apprehensive-File251 1 points · Sep 2025
Justin has been at least referenced, like, every other book. And is a foundational part of Harry's backstory. Kemmler's name showed up once, and i don't think it ever does again- maybe one brief reference when corpsetaker shows back up, but like that is it.
Sleep-typing 1 points · Sep 2025
Lea is also mentioned every book.
She is a significant character, but she is not Cowl by power of being mentioned.
Justin was also one of the most important people in Harrys' formative years. Not mentioning him often would be more weird.
nostandinganytime 1 points · Sep 2025
To your point, I think people keep forgetting that it wasn't Cowl who performed the Darkhallow. Grevane did it while Cowl and Kumori were in veils. Cowl stepped in at the last minute and took over. Sure, maybe it was another layer of protection but Cowl hasn't been worried about a fight the whole book. If he knew how to do it, he could have done so himself instead of waiting to take the ritual over.
Apprehensive-File251 2 points · Sep 2025
... damn, that sequence did get muddled in my head. Thanks for that correction on that detail.
I still dont think cowl as kemmler makes sense for a number of other reasons.
Personally, im also curious if cowl is even a single individual. Theres very few reasons to go the the lengths that cowl and kumori do to hide their identity.
Id think in a world with magic, if people believed they were dead for 10+ years, there likely would be better ways to disguise themselves, and that they would worry more about like.. being it'd through magically means, tracking spells, familiar styles etc.
To me the cloaks make sense in two ways- one is that say, if cowl was someone on the white council, it gives him the ability to duck in and out of character easily, and he has to worry about being recognized foing nefarious deeds.
The second- is that there might be multiple people running around acting as cowl. The one who traded blows with him in dead beat may not be the same as was at Bianca party, or that we see later. But the cowl and voice disguise makes them all seem the same to their allies and subordinates.
KipIngram [OP] 0 points · Sep 2025
Yes, but demonstrating the ability to do the ritual without learning it anywhere might have raised suspicions about his identity - it wouldn't have been reasonable for the real original Cowl to have that knowledge. So, he faked the need as part of his cover.
This is also the very first thing people say in objection to the theory, which really amazes me because of how easily responded to it is.
It's for this same reason that Cowl told Harry he had "nothing but disdain" for "the madman Kemmler." It was an act.
Apprehensive-File251 3 points · Sep 2025
You ignore every other point i made, and the main one is that this version of kemmler makes no sense.
This version of kemmler requires that he took on /all/ the white council, and successfully faked his death. Then as Justin, abounded necromancy as his primary interest, his former apprentices, and instead raised harry and elaine. Even if he knew harry was a starborn, it seems a stretch. And then allowed harry to defeat him?
If Justin was kemmler, (and especially if he knew harry was a starborn), why on earth would he send a walker after him, and not undead, something a young harry could not hope to turn back on him? Not any of his other apprentices, who apparently he was also heading from?
And then kemmler!Justin fakes his death again, but /doesnt body/ hop anymore, retaining Justin's features- a well known, famously dead warden.
Do you have a single reason to believe that kemmler is alive? Because all this feels like justifications for why you think itd be cool if he was alive, but not any text reason to think it actually is an event in the series. No one remarks on justin not acting like himself, etc, that I can recall. None of kemmlers apprentices seem to think he could be alive.
KipIngram [OP] 1 points · Sep 2025
Sorry about that - I've just seen that argument so frequently, every time this comes up, that it just grabbed my attention. Honestly I didn't find any of the other comments to be more than opinions. Like, who's to say how often a series should "mention its big bad?" I think Kemmler's been discussed quite a lot for someone supposedly dead and of no relevance to the coming story. And if he were discussed too much, it would seem obvious to us that he's going to show back up.
I'm guessing. I have a lot of reasons for it, but it's still ultimately just a guess. I've read tons and tons of stuff from people who like the theory and people who don't, and for me it remains the most cohesive prediction I can see making about the future plot.
We'll all find out in a few years.
DropMeAnOrangeBeam 1 points · Sep 2025
I don't see it. I think there are too many assumptions we have to believe to be true for it to work. Why would Justin fake his own death? Justin was a well-respected Warden. He could have killed Harry and if anyone asked, said he found a rogue warlock and had to kill him.
KipIngram [OP] 1 points · Sep 2025
He faked his own death because he failed to enthrall Harry. Once Harry slipped through his clutches, his only real options were 1) kill Harry or 2) give up the Justin cover identity. Because he'd outed himself as a bad guy to Harry, and Harry might come into contact with the Council and rat on him.
I believe he didn't want to kill Harry because he needs him for later. The whole reason he adopted Harry and Elaine was to try to acquire a Starborn wizard he could control. I propose that Elaine turned out not to be Starborn, but Harry was pay dirt. I think he needs Harry because he's using / intends to use Outsiders in his schemes. He's "collaborating" with them. But he has no intention of letting them get what they want in the end. After all, their goal is to destroy the reality he's seeking to dominate. So he has to have a way to bottle them up again when he's done with them. That's where a powerful Starborn wizard comes in.
Actually, he doesn't have to literally control Harry in order to achieve that goal - he just needs Harry to exist. So he wasn't willing to kill Harry. He didn't send He Who Walks behind after Harry to kill him - HWWB well could have done that. His goal was to goad Harry into throwing a big spell.
So that left only alternative 2 - give up the Justin cover identity. With Harry a free agent, it was shot all to heck anyway.
Sleep-typing 0 points · Sep 2025
Wrote an extremely long reply to another sinilar comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/1nhiw24/comment/nef3kk0/
Jedi4Hire 1 points · Sep 2025
In my opinion, with what we know of the White Council and their history with Kemmler, this is not possible. The White Council is many things but they aren't incompetent. They had already killed Kemmler multiple times and per Bob, for the last time not only did the entire White Council hat up to take him down, they took extra steps to make it stick.
If Kemmler somehow survived despite that, it completely cheapens the White Council as a narrative foil for Harry. I have no problem believing that body-hopping was probably the reason for Kemmler's survival before that last stand but not after.
AmethystOrator 2 points · Sep 2025
The White Council also failed to retrieve Bob and has somehow not figured out where he's been since.
I agree that they aren't incompetent, but there's a fallibility there.
Jedi4Hire 1 points · Sep 2025
Not really a fair point. Dumourne was sent to destroy Bob and he secretly took him. The White Council thinks Bob was destroyed decades ago.
AmethystOrator 1 points · Sep 2025
In light of how things ended up with DuMorne then shouldn't that cast doubt on his previous activities and promises?
The fact that they still think Bob destroyed and haven't yet verified it equates to the fallibility I mentioned.
Sleep-typing 1 points · Sep 2025
A large portion of the White Council believes that DuMorne is a hero that was maliciously killed by his warlock apprentice, whom they seemingly barely knew of. They certainly didn't know about Elaine.
Sleep-typing 1 points · Sep 2025
Luccio told Harry that spirit/skull was destroyed, so it's clear that the council thought it was.
Justin could have been tasked with doing so, and tried communicating with it first out of curiosity.
Remember the Bob that almost killed Harry? That would be the Bob Justin met with. If Justin let it out without putting limitations to his leave, Bob would basically eat Justin from the inside with "true" magic. Or at least literally feed him what he tried to feed Harry.
If he didn't let the spirit out, cautious from White council information, then Kemmler-Bob would still spout his propaganda and promises of powerful magic.
[deleted] 1 points · Sep 2025
I don’t think Kemmler would reveal himself to anyone after what happened to his original body. Assuming that he is DuMorn. Warden Justin just happened to know to grab the skull? He couldn’t let Bob know because if someone picked up the skull Bob could tell them. Just Harry knowing that he was using black magic and Harry getting outside of his control would have been enough to fake his death. Not only would he come onto the Warden’s radar, HWWBehind may or may not want to stomp him too.