Where does DA go from here?

DA: The Veilguard. Man, where do I begin? The highs can be pretty high, and the lows are definitely quite low.

Whether or not the art style jives with you, this is some of the best - imo - production value I've seen from an RPG in a long time from facial animations, settings, etc. Props to BioWare for that. The zones feel independent, unique (also gorgeous) and really give you an insight to the cultures and people there. I enjoyed exploring for awhile until it felt almost Inquisition-grindy. I couldn't push forth too far into OG Inquisition for its engagement mechanics, which were pathetically Ubisoft-esc.

The classes - though few - feel very distinct from one another. Unfortunately, I don't see that driving me for another playthrough as combat becomes fairly grindy and repetitive especially on higher difficulties where enemy health is jacked up to no end. Playing as a rogue has been a good time, and I'll give praise to BioWare for allowing the player to freely respec their character at will. I've tried Duelist, Saboteur, and Ranger builds and have enjoyed all three for their variance on gameplay.

There are some great voice actors, but we know the writing isn't good. Said writing is PG-13 or pushing PG at times. I found myself enjoying the moment more than the actual dialogue except with Solas, I'd say. He was always enlightening to chat with. Enjoying the moment in dialogue in this game is more so enjoying the visuals and production values stated above. The companion stories DAV range from fantastic to needing to be completely reworked or removed from the game (obviously not happening). I'm a progressive and inclusive guy, but Taash's story feels so incredibly forced that I actually had to cringe. BioWare shit the bed on this. I don't care what race, orientation, etc. a character is, but to drag a player down some HR-infused storyline is bad writing - very bad.

IDK, man. DA has never had an entry even remotely close to another. DAO is one of the best games of all time. DA2 was massively rushed by EA and suffered for it. DAI tried to mix 1 and 2 alongside some heavily grindy mechanics. DAV succeeded (somewhat) with its combat model but lacked BioWare's legendary writing. It's a series that has a serious identity crisis. I hope we see another one, but I doubt it.

197 comments · 73% upvoted · other discussions

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Darazelly

Wouldn't surprise me if it'll be like Fable. Gone for 10-15 years, then given to a new studio for a soft (re-)reboot that's set in like... year 99:Dragon.

Assuming the AAA-industry doesn't just suddenly get really excited about trying out new IPs I mean. Then it might be dead.

SuddenlyCake

Did any Bioware IP to other studios tho? Seems like all of them are in the vault

Darazelly

I mean, EA owns the IP, they can do whatever they want with it (Edit: Just like how Microsoft owns the Fable IP). Only IP they haven't used is Jade Empire. KOTOR and BG are both licensed properties owned by other companies.

I guess the underlying bit to my guess is that I'd be surprised if Bioware is around for much longer, considering the next ME game is years and years away, assuming the project have even been greenlit in the last few months.

Geostomp

EA almost never lets an IP go. Not when they can theoretically make money off of it years later with nostalgic remakes.

Darazelly

Yeah? That's why I'm willing to guess it'll just get punted over to some other studio if Bioware goes under? It getting handed to another studio doesn't necessitate it being sold by EA, they just need to pick a studio they either own, or just license the DA IP to the studio and publish the game. :''D

[deleted]

Your take is exactly the same as mine. After a flop like this, it'll be over a decade before they touch the IP again, and they'll try something like a soft reboot for sure, moving as far away from the one that flopped as they can.

Shandyxr

Jade Empire is one I forget about, but I loved it when I played it.

peppermintvalet

They apparently used Jade empire 2 plot points in mass effect and dragon age. I’m still mad about it.

Istvan_hun

also, the blight/archedemon idea in Origins is very, very similar to the King of Shadows in Neverwinter Nights 2.

But yeah, the anvil of the void (DAO) and the rift below the lake (DAI) were definietly lifted from Jade Empire.

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Contrary45

Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and KotoR (if we count the remake) all got passed around to other developers at some point.

purple_clang

Wouldn't WotC have a lot of the rights for the story/narrative aspects of Baldur's Gate? Some of the characters appear in other WotC materials (e.g. in some of the novels). Neverwinter Nights also isn't a fully original IP. Same for KotoR.

Contrary45

Yes and EA owns Dragon Age and Mass Effect not Bioware.

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MarshallDyl26

There’s another studio supposedly working on a KOTOR remake but that’s just a fart in the wind at this point as no gameplay and very scarce details have been shown,

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Depressed_Warlock

The best thing that could happen would be EA ditching Dragon Age and Larian buying it later and getting Gaider and Laidlaw back into it. Wishful thinking, I know. But a man can have his dose of copium.

Istvan_hun

Probably. 15 years of silence before a reboot with a different studio.

Some of these are actually good, like Wolfenstein TNO or the "new" XCOM.

No_Routine_7090

I feel like this is the best case scenario but I’m reluctant to say this would satisfy me. We don’t really know how Playground is handling Fable and everything I’ve seen suggests a hard reboot that dismisses everything post fable anniversary (and potentially even original fable) entirely. 

I’m just not sure how valuable series reboots are that reject the spirit of the franchise and play with its corpse. But perhaps I am being too cynical.

 I can’t say for sure until we have more info. All I can say for now is that the promotional material for the new fable reminds me too much of the promotional material for the last year of Veilguard.

If a dragon age reboot goes the route that I suspect of new fable it probably will take place at the end of the third blight and follow the as yet unknown hero who slew Toth. Not necessarily bad imo but unlikely to live up to the franchise name and continue the series.

Darazelly

Oh agreed, the new Fable is absolutely a complete reboot, but I used it more as a example of a dormant IP (whose studio went under) that was brought back.

Unlike Fable, which, kinda... wrote itself into some corners/had story that was all over the place, DA feels more like something like Star Wars, or even the Elder Scrolls. It's got plenty of pre-history, for as you say a Third Blight game (agree with you on it, it's also been my guess when this topic have come up elsewhere), but also there's... you can do smaller narratives in Thedas that doesn't involve end of the world stuff. It's a lot more open in that regards.

TootlesFTW

I thought for sure DAV would have the Veil coming down, thus creating a very turbulent and interesting landscape for any future games. Now the only plot threads I can think of are those referencing something coming from beyond the sea, and whatever is going on with the Qunari/Qun.

And if another game happens, I expect a time jump of at least a few years to establish grown griffons...because how fucking cool would a flying mount be?

fivemagicks [OP]

I think someone else made an excellent point. Maybe go the route of Baldurs Gate. Send it to a new studio to make a DAO-esc game. That would probably be the IPs saving grace

TootlesFTW

I'm not of the "Bioware is dead" mindset, I think they just need a better game director and lead writer. There is a lot of great writing & ideas in DAV consistent with good ol' Bioware, it just needs someone with an overall plan to steer the ship.

David Gaider's exit ended up being way more noticeable than I realized, and while Trick Weekes is a fantastic writer on their own it seems like the team needed stronger oversight.

Contrary45

I think they just need a better game director and lead writer. There is a lot of great writing & ideas in DAV consistent with good ol' Bioware, it just needs someone with an overall plan to steer the ship

I can almost guarantee that the blame doesnt fall on Corinne or Trick. As Corinne came in to fix a sinking ship and made it somewhat salvageable, and Trick has stated a few times they are not entirely happy with how Veilguard turned out writing wise

TootlesFTW

Certain problems 100% came from above the writers, like the lack of choice carry over from the previous games. I don't want to downplay that total disaster. But there are also a lot of issues I had that the come down to a writing choice, and seem directly related to Corinne or Trick.

The lack of dialogue between Rook & the companions, for example. I know this was a decision they made to stop players from constantly babysitting their companions to see if they had more dialogue...but overall this simply removed any ability to ask questions & organically connect with each character & the broader world. I learned so much about Tevinter from gabbing with Dorian in DAI - why can't I do the same for Rivain & Taash?

The utter lack of development with Lucanis & Spite to the point where being possessed by a demon seems to be almost a non-issue. The fact that Taash, whose entire character plot is driven by "don't label me", culminates in a binary choice of 'Rivain or Qunari'. The promises of DAV being the "most romantic Dragon Age game" with...very underwhelming romances. The whitewashing of the Crows & Tevinter. The fact that Rook is limited to being 'nice' or 'nice, but with a sense of humor'.

IDK there is a lot of little things that stacked up to kill my overall enjoyment, even though I like the game overall.

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Contrary45

I mean even with the veil not coming down with how much has happened all over Thedas it will still be an extremly turbulent time post Veilguard. Thedas hasn't seen the kind of Devastation faced in Veilguard since the first Blight

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SuddenlyCake

Into the deeproads never to be seen again

AOKaye

Sad but I think you’re right - DA goes nowhere from here. Maybe one day EA will sell it if we are lucky…

hevahavahan

I think they might do a short novel about the executors to wrap up that storyline, but I don't think we will see much aside from that. If they do a full sequel with those plot I will be genuinely surprised, not in a good way.

[deleted]

Nowhere. I mean that sadly and seriously.

Electronic-Price-530

Par Vollen

[deleted]

It is now free to return to Par Vollen, with the thief.

Nodqfan

A Legendary Edition is probably the only direction they could go with it at this point.

fivemagicks [OP]

Looks like I'm going to play through DAO on GOG now. 😂

g4nk3r

Which will probably not happen because DAO and DA2 used the eclipse engine which was dropped after DA2. This engine was only used by Bioware (and developed by them ofc), and after the recent bloodletting I am not sure if there is anyone left at their office who knows how it used to work.

This results in them having to mostly start from scratch for DAO and DA2, which probably makes the project too expensive in the eyes of EA.

_Rookie_21

I think the series is over. It's been 10 years since DAI, and we get a disappointing "action-RPG" designed to appeal to a new audience, but it fails in that regard and in pleasing the old fans.

With BioWare focusing on Mass Effect now, and with that game still in the early stages of production, we wouldn't see another Dragon Age game until 2032 or 2033 at the earliest. I don't think many people are going to care about Dragon Age at that point.

fivemagicks [OP]

Damn. Yeah, I feel you, brother. Aside from some great production value, DAV doesn't really feel like a BioWare game. Their history is filled with all-timers, but clearly they're going in the wrong direction.

Negative-Emotion-622

Veilguard as it is is fine, but yeah, it just is not what a lot of DA fans wanted. It's totally lacking in meaningful RPG mechanics. I didn't hate Veilguard (gave it like a 6.5/10) but I do think it killed off the franchise. I feel like EA and BioWare (or the corpse of BioWare) would have seen after Baldurs Gate 3 that people don't want an RPG franchise to become an action game to appeal to the masses. Make what your fans wanted!!

FlatNote

Unfortunately, it was way too late for that level of course correction by the time BG3 was out and becoming a phenomenon.

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Reapers-Hound

Dead, reboot or it’s gonna get a collection released of the old games

[deleted]

Nowhere, because it tanked them for hundreds of millions. The next one, if they or whoever might buy the company if they go bankrupt ever decide to make another, will be in 15 years or so from now when the generation that played this one has forgotten and the next doesn't have it in their memory to begin with. And then they'll make one that radically moves away from everything this one did, perhaps a soft reboot type game like God of War 2018 was to the rest of the series, likely with a similar time skip too. That's usually how companies behave when one of their flagships flops really badly. They'll recognize that it still has name value and thus potential, more so at least than marketing an entirely new IP, but they'll want to do the opposite of what caused a financial crater for them last time, and they'll want to do it only once the wound has healed or been forgotten in their fandom.

If you thought Inquisition to Veilguard was a long wait; expect twice that for the next, because Inquisition didn't even tank. In fact, it was their most successful DA game. To go from most successful to brutal flop is absolutely going to make Bioware take a real long look at the drawing board, hence why so many people working on this game were immediately let go as soon as the numbers came in.

Geostomp

For the foreseeable future? Nowhere.

BioWare itself is in a sorry state. They've bled most is their talent over the past decade and had nothing but various failures since Inquisition ended.

They're on their last legs now and desperately need the new Mass Effect to be a hit to justify EA not shuttering them now. Veilguard was a failed revival of a franchise that had already been practically dormant for a decade. It lost most of the old guard and didn't bring in anywhere near enough to justify trying again. It's not like anyone is burning to know about the Executors, the only plot hook left.

As far as anyone can tell, Dragon Age is basically dead. Locked away in the EA vault with so many other IPs. I don't think that there's much of anyone left at BioWare willing to risk what little goodwill they have remaining with EA's higher ups to fight for it. Not when they need to pull out a miracle with ME4 to justify not being broken up completely.

babybunnybubblebutt

Really hoping it will go the way of bg3 and have the IP sold to a studio that actually cares to make a good game and listen to the fans instead of how much money they "lost by not doing live service".

fivemagicks [OP]

I can appreciate this positive outlook. That would be really cool

hevahavahan

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they let go of BG series cause it's tied to wotc? Which led them to making their own ip which is DA series? I don't recall EA or Bioware selling off their rights to other companies.

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snarleyWhisper

They need to get out of development hell and make some linear games. All this focus on live service and open worlds is too big and ends up wasting a ton of time. I think veilguard was a step in the right direction from a level design perspective, lots of environments without needing to be open worlds.

Negative-Emotion-622

Level design wasn't the issue with Veilguard. Writing and the fact it wasn't an rpg were the issues. They took a very good RPG series and turned it into a very well presented action game with mediocre to passing at best gameplay.

Deep-Technician5378

It's dead. DAV killed it and any hope of there being anything like it again.

The new Mass Effect will kill that franchise as well.

[deleted]

All these "What's next for DA" post make laugh out loud. The franchise is dead, it's literally going nowhere.

fivemagicks [OP]

That's also an answer.

[deleted]

Best case scenario, somehow EA changes their mind and decides to sell the IP. But I don't see them doing that.

Vivid_Indication_794

Considering how many dead ips they have and do absolutely nothing with from the graveyard of closed studios, don't hold your breath.

[deleted]

What I'm wondering is what are they going to do the next Dragon Age Day this year. Will they lie? Will they pretend they don't remember it?

Nowayoutofhell

If Mass Effect succeeds then it's a possibility that Dragon Age can be brought back.... But for me the og creators (Laidlaw, Gaider, Kirby, etc) have to comeback which I don't see happening. I say this because after the Andromeda storm, EA put Mass Effect on ice cancelling future projects and DLC. Only for years later to bring it back. I'm happy Mass Effect is back but cautious because of everything that is going on in the games industry.

I still don't understand how EA messed up a series that sold 12 million copies on its last entry... Nine years for a game that is so bland and uninspired. I truly believe EA forced Bioware to make this game last minute with reused assets from the two scrapped games they had planned.

If I were EA I would remake Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age 2. And remaster Dragon Age Inquisition. They have to get some goodwill going with the fans as I feel abused by EA at this point.

[deleted]

Bioware made it. Not EA.

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TheNakedOracle

They should sell it to me for a crisp five dollar bill. I have some bad ideas and nothing to lose.

The-Mad-Badger

It doesn't. Be fully prepared for this to be the end.

Dextixer

For me personally? Dragon Age is dead, i was fine with origins, with 2, with inquisition. Veilguard seems like it wanted to take a dump on all of what was established (fucking executors, WHOSE IDEA WAS THAT!?). As far as im personally concerned, Dragon Age ended with Inquisition.

As for it as a game series? It all depends on Mass Effect. If their newest game from that isnt legendary, the company might straight up fail.

Contrary45

(fucking executors, WHOSE IDEA WAS THAT!?)

Gaider they were introduced in Inquistion

guilty_by_design

They were. It was a couple of war table operations. They were a 'shadowy cabal' then, just as now, and sounded just as stupidly 'vague-mysterious'. If they were always meant to be important in future games, that's just sad. It's such a cop-out. Basically 'wooo, mysterious cloaked figures control everything'. It's such an easy way out whenever they back themselves into a corner, which they did with Veilguard. It's over... but we left the door open just a crack, see? SEE?

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zaqiqu

If there were any writers left I could see them maybe doing a fix-it novel or two or a world of Thedas vol 3, but as it stands now I think the series is essentially over, and more than that i wouldn't be surprised if EA totally shutters BioWare after ME5 releases

Skydude252

I think it is likely done. Disappointing sales, no DLC, fastest game ever from release to PS+ (aside from a handful planned to launch on +).

Aside from the one particular character who is awful but we have no way of calling out for being awful, I have thought it was decent so far, if not amazing (recently completed assembling the team), but after so long since Inquisition, it is tremendously disappointing.

I’m not rooting for it to fail and end the franchise, that’s my prediction, not my hope.

_Rookie_21

Disappointing sales, no DLC, fastest game ever from release to PS+ (aside from a handful planned to launch on +).

No DLC is damning IMO. It's like they knew DAV wouldn't be a hit, and it wouldn't be worth making DLC for it.

fivemagicks [OP]

I'm all for innovating on what works. Look no further than the DOOM series or even Pillars of Eternity (for CRPG sake, excluding Avowed). Will innovations on a successful platform always jive with everyone? No, but it usually helps retain those that love the series alongside bringing in new folks to the series.

DA's identity should have been innovated from the successes of Origins, but they drastically shifted and lost people. This happened to the Dawn of War series, too (RIP).

I feel you on your prediction. I believe you're probably right, sadly.

[deleted]

Toilet for now. But it's bound to be scooped up eventually again. Or it's all mobile games from here on out.

Mission-Horror-523

Probably either dead or live service game because they learned all the wrong lessons :/

ashandare

Yeah, the game didn't do well enough because people couldn't give them more money for cosmetics! /s

[deleted]

It's insane how they just refused to acknowledge the problem, as if there weren't a thousand videos on YouTube alone spelling out the problems before the game even launched.

Mikk_UA_

With BioWare probably nowhere, if Mass Effect is not a massive win, a true masterpiece - BioWare will probably cease to exist for a while. It will not be enough to be just slightly better than Andromeda and the big flop of V.

I would love to see Dragon Age developed by a studio like Larian Studios, rather than current team that builds it like a jigsaw puzzle from different games, with checkboxes at its core....

fivemagicks [OP]

If Larian made it like DAO with some new inventive measures, it would be fantastic.

Depressedduke

The urge to just say "Into The Fade".... Must resist.

Jetfaerie777

It's done for. Best we can hope for is that the IP gets sold or they see the value in a faithful DAO/DA2 remake (key word here is FAITHFUL)

Pavillian

Sleep

Few_Introduction1044

Into that good night, as a series that has given us much.

Everything must come to an end.

( Or more likely some prequel story)

[deleted]

Easy. Nowhere. If DAV wasn't enough of a nail to the coffin, the secret ending buried everything six feet underground

Traffy124

There's little chance we'll hear about Dragon Age again for a while, the commercial failure that is Veilguard has certainly killed any possibility of seeing a new game in the next few years, maybe later but it will certainly be another attempt at a soft reboot in order to put aside what happened and start on a new basis, with just a few references to the previous games, so in broad terms a bit like they tried with DAV, which resulted in a failure at every level...

If there is a new game I will buy it, because I like the license and I want to make my own opinion, but given this last game, my expectations are really at their lowest and I honestly don't expect anything more from this franchise...

Content-Froyo-2465

Dead Space 3 and the subsequent death of Visceral could be instructive here. Give it 10 years and we might have a remake of Origins from 0% of the original team.

I don't think Mass Effect 5 will save Bioware unless it's an unprecedented hit

Serres5231

Hopefully nowhere. They have destroyed Ferelden offscreen. Thats already a crime itself that we couldn't help them out whatsoever! Its dead. I don't want to have a "sequel" set idk 1000 years in the future either. Not to mention they butchered so much of the story with Veilguard that i also have no interest to see where its going...

tacticianallie

As much as I hate to say it, I think this is it unless they hand it off to another studio. I would love to see it go the way of BG3 like other people are saying, but I don't see Bioware giving it up.

On your point about the characters: The way we interact with our companions in Veilguard made me miss Inquisition so much. I could spend hours in Skyhold chatting with the different characters, and they felt so much more fleshed out and relatable then the companions in Veilguard. Even if I didn't particularly like the character, I loved learning about the world through their eyes. The writing in Veilguard felt...too plot driven? If that makes sense. It didn't let us get to know the characters as people as much as Inquisition, and the writers dropped the ball hard in that aspect.

Traffy124

The writing in Veilguard felt...too plot driven? If that makes sense.

Not sure it this is what you meant, but if I understand it well, it's a criticism that comes up quite often, that in the first 3 opus, you were the author of your story, it was you who forged it through your choices, your actions and your relations with the others characters, whereas in DAV, you only follow the story that was written for Rook, with very few roleplay possibilities and the dialogue choices that are almost always the same with very little difference, which gives this feeling that the writing is more driven by the plot and not by your character

tacticianallie

Yes, thank you for phrasing it better. Rook came with a predetermined personality and moral code, it felt like. There were very few chances to flesh them out as a character depending on your play style.

I read a different thread on this subreddit talking about the naming of the player character that actually makes a solid point regarding this. In DAO and DAI, the player character was referred to by a title - Warden and Inquisitor. Hawke was referred to by their last name, which is still relatively impersonal. "Rook" is a nickname, which someone has to give you for personal reasons. Varric even says it's "because they think in straight lines." Doesn't leave much room for personalization there if a well-established character already gave you a nickname based on how you supposedly think.

Traffy124

Yes I read the same post, and I agreed too, if they wanted to go with the idea that Rook is someone who "thinks in straight lines" and who already has a predetermined personality, I think there should have been a game in between, even a DLC to Inquisition, where we learned to discover this, in order to understand why Varric nicknamed him that, to allow us to understand the character, from memory we just have a few flashbacks of Rook remembering the past at the lighthouse which allows us to personalize our character a little then you just follow the story that was written for him... it's just bad, really bad, it must be one of the worst customization systems I've seen in a while. We are the hero, everyone loves us, almost all our answers are variations of the same answer... in the end we are really too limited in terms of roleplay, something that was essential in the previous games

barr65

We fight The Maker!

Informal-Tour-8201

Circling the drain

[deleted]

The first paragraph tells me you didn’t play BG3.

cl0th0s

Away unfortunately.

D4YW4LK3R86

It’s dead. Give it a decade and EA may fully reboot. If the next ME doesn’t hit BioWare is finished.

ADLegend21

A lower stakes political thriller. We can come down from world shattering stakes and maybe keep a story inside a countries borders like DA2 kept us in Kirkwall.

Contrary45

Wait awhile, everyone was saying the same doom and gloom about Mass Effect in 2017-2018 joe they are working on ME5. I think it's more than anything its that Bioware cant work on multiple projects at once anymore with how modern games are made. If Mass Effect is somewhat profitable they will probably become a studio that rotates between Mass Effect and Dragon Age for quite awhile as existing IPs are a better bet for corporations than new IPs even if they have a somewhat soiled reputation

Geostomp

Mass Effect 4 was announced four years ago and was confirmed two months ago to have only just now started pre-production. This was after the announcement that half of the studio is gone. At the current rate, the game will be out in four years or so. At that point, more than twenty years from the release of the original game and a decade after the last release of the franchise. The people entering its target age range will not have been born when it started and have been children when it was last culturally relevant. This is the game they desperately need to be a hit and the old audience will have long moved on with the new audience probably having never heard of such a thing.

I do not consider its current status to be reassuring for the future of the studio. They were in a far better state back then and we all saw how that's gone for them since. They are a studio long past its prime coasting on past glories with more competition than ever before. Gloom and doom is more than warranted.

Negative-Emotion-622

At the rate we are going I would actually be surprised if ME5 ever actually releases. Forget the game actually being GOOD

StarPowerMoves

To the cemetery!

Ntippit

Well DAV put it in the toilet so... I guess the sewer system?

Radiant_Pudding5133

BioWare will end up getting kiboshed after Mass Effect so nowhere, most likely

Sdog1981

We all hate EA, but one EA can do is make money.

Dragon Age out sold Mass Effect and they just never knew what to do with it.

They will lick their wounds and attempt to come back with some type of low stakes game to try to rebuild the name.

Zalveris

No where. Veilguard read pretty obviously as a send off/closing arc to me with a contractually obligated sequel hook. Bioware is dead and EA shot it. Even if there's more content in the DA universe it wouldn't be the same just be glad it ended on the right foot and move on to different stories.

Worried-Advisor-7054

Realistically, nowhere, it's dead. Even if not dead, I'd only really be interested in buying the next game if they retcon DAV anyway. Other than that, I wouldn't be purchasing the next title no matter what it was.

Same thing happened with me and WoW. I don't even know if TWW is good because Shadowlands completely destroyed my attachment to the story, and without that, I'm not really interested anymore.

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